Cattle working lines

[CarolU]

I have a question for Colombians...

When Paso Finos were first imported from Colombia by Meridian Meadows and a few others, they by-passed the show Paso Finos and went into the mountains and bought horses from the cattle ranches. These were some of my favorite horses like Mahoma and Baron que tal. I think Coral LaCE was from that area too. Maybe a little stockier then the show horses, lower gaited, etc.

Is there still a distinction with these horses? Is it possible to find them?

[CarolU]

This wasn't supposed to be a difficult question. :(

[stella]

Carol, it was my understanding from Phipps that they bypassed the showhorses because they couldnt tell if they were naturally gaited, or "helped" in training, and that MM was really looking to promote them as cattle/working horses anyway. You can see that in the old issues of "Western Horsemen" where they ran ads in the 60s, til about 70, too.

Alberto Uribe imported such stallions as Lunares and Muneco to resell here.

[CarolU]

Let me clarify. What I like isn't a specific genotype, that I know of. What I like is a specific phenotype: even conformation, broad build, big butt, the kind meant to move cattle. Like this:

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/23115ZarButt.jpg
http://pasobaby.tripod.com/PasoFinos/thumbnails/600x450/DSCF0037.JPG

I know some people here how breed these type of Paso Finos, just wonder if they are still bred in Colombia.

[Terry Wallace]

Hey Carol...I understand what you mean completely...but fear you will suffer a severe tongue lashing on here!!!

Good luck to you in using the term "working lines" in reference to Paso Finos!

Let me know if you need some photos of PASO FINOS working cattle!:v:

JMO...

Take COVER Carol!!!!!!

[PattiB]

My first Paso, Aviso de Borrascoso, was a natural cow horse. He was Faron de Oro (PR) on top and Madrina (Col) on the bottom My gelding that I works cows now is Impetuoso (double Resorte IV) on top and Lakehart Ranita (Illuminaries-Rosada del Rosa) on the bottom. He isn't as naturally talented as Aviso but he is getting there.

[CarolU]

I'm not looking at horses who can work cattle. To be honest, I think they all can, some are a little more "cowy" then others, but they all can. I'm looking at stock-type Paso Finos. What lines make them? When I look at the pictures of Baron que tal, I see a very stocky horse, like Zar is. I just wonder if they are still breeding stockier horses, or if they are a cross of COL and PR lines.

[Red Ryder]

Believe Fran raises the "type" built horses you are looking for.
I'll ler her post pic if she desires.

[Cindy]

I think the problem that you are havning in getting your question answewred is that there are not really any Colombians who read here any more. They have all been run off by the numerous erroneous and sometimes malicious comments about their horses, methods of training, culture and heritage. You might try the question over on Carlos' site as there are plenty of Colombians that read there who could answer your question if they so desire.

[CarolU]

.
Guess I'll have to wait for a Colombian to read this. I know they do read this board, even if they don't post.

[motorgypsy]

From what I've read and seen so far the "paso fino Colombiano" as a show horse may not have even been in existence during the time before cars. I'm thinking the criollos were probably primarily used for cattle and from this stock the paso finos and the diagonals were developed as riding and show horses. You know they aren't going to use show horses for cattle and I can't see them even bothering to register their cattle horses. This is my best guess but knowing the stratification of their society the breeders very likely weren't the daily cattle workers. They hired people to do that on their fincas.

The Cauca Valley where we lived was big cattle country and we did see paso finos there and horses were popular but for the farm owners to be out working cattle themselves - I just can't see it. This doesn't mean they didn't ride or participate in contests or take an active role in the farm and the breeding but the American cowboy furnished his own horse very frequently. I wouldn't be surprised if the Colombian cowboy didn't do the same thing.

In other words the show lines came from criollo cattle horses but the cattle horses were not likely to be mixed with the show lines. The show horses were valuable. The cattle horses for the most part weren't. Now bull fighting horses on the other hand would probably be great cattle horses also. Have to check on that.

As I said - I'm just guess so far knowing the society and their values.

This is interesting and I'll check into it further.

The information below came from the atta site.

ASDEPASO was created in 1946, the first equine association in Colombia. Rules and regulations were established, and criteria and the division of the classes by age groups were formed.

It was not until some time later that ASDEPASO separated modalities at, i.e., Paso Colombiano, Trocha, Trote, etc., at the shows.
Since our horse was used strictly for work and the plain enjoyment of the farmers and any other individual that had the privilege of owning a horse with brio, good gait and that was well trained, whether it was Paso Castellano, Trochador or Galpero (Gallop).

So it sounds as though cattle ranchers used a mix of trote gallop, trocha and paso finos for working horses rather than concentrating on one type. I'll continue checking for more inforamtion.

The earliest shows were just gatherings for selling livestock and horses of all types. Specialization came later. But I think they still show all the different types at one time.

[CarolU]

As I think about it, it seems these stocky horses came from breeding Colombian stallions to Puerto Rican mares. Maybe the substance and depth that I appreciate came from the PR mares instead. Maybe I'd get more information if I asked this in the PR forum.

[motorgypsy]

No there are very large, stocky pure Colombian horses also. I saw one at Nationals that reminded me of the larger PPR's and asked the owner his ancestry and she told me he was pure Colombian. As Jane Hurl said - there are large PPR's (we own one and Guamani was large) but most are not large. Again there is great variablility in Colombian paso finos as there is in the PPR's in size and musculature. Our stallion is not tall but he is very muscular and if you look at the stallion that Fabio Ochoa is show riding he also had great substance. The trote galope and Tocha horses do seem on the average to be a bit larger than today's show Colombian paso finos but that's on the average. Cattle were not that large until the hybrids, Herfords, Angus and so on became popular so I suspect size was not that much of a factor. Strength, heart, agility, endurance, brains and so on would be valued more in working smaller cattle as they did in Florida when the Cracker horses were primarily used with Cracker cattle. Only when the larger varieties of cattle were brought in after WWII were the larger horses more important and even then not always.

[SandyMM]

Coral LaCE bred, born, trained on a bull fighting farm... what else is there to say....

Coral's Don Doardo de Vez (ColxPR cross)
still breeding
http://www.lacaballerizapasofinos.com/Resources/images/doradoconfo-10-27-07.jpg

Cantante de Omega (ColxPR cross)
a treasured memory - excellent broodmare producer
http://www.lacaballerizapasofinos.com/Resources/images/cantandedeomega1.jpg

There are many de Vez mares with tremedous substance, also.
Nicole's new filly listed on the website
has great substance while retaining her feminine look.
By a Coral son and out of ColxPR cross from the lines that is producing succcessful endurance competitors.
http://www.lacaballerizapasofinos.com/Resources/images/colibridevez1-07-07.jpg

[Carol Nelson]

Gosh...look at the bone on that filly...beautiful!!!

[LynnG]

I think the term "working lines" used in many cases is just a catch phrase. For the most part a horse or Paso Fino that likes to "work" has what is called "heart" and that is bred into many Paso Finos... they love to "work" or participate in what ever is asked of them.

For "cattle working"... now why state in such a broad sense, but more an "individual" sense of identifying those individual horses that have a natural sense of "cowsense". Not all Paso Finos have cowsense any more then other breeds may have. That is also a "herding" mentality in the horse. Are "alpha" minded horses more likely to be horses with "cowsense"? I have horses that are scared to death of a cow, and then another who has the natural "cowsense". But I'll give it the cow-savy horse, she most likely was exposed to them where she was born/raised while the other one wasn't.

As per phenotype, what would hold up is a horse with good sound legs and balanced conformation... but this would also be true in any Paso fino horse that is "working" showring or otherwise on the trail. A horse too heavy muscled could be considered not to be as light on his feet vs as an example Arabians used in endurance competition...don't think you'll see as many real heavy bound muscled horses. So consider a horse that is light and agile, what is their general phenotype? Not a "clunky" horse for sure.

Personally for me, to make a horse a "working" horse, I want to see that it has done "it" him/her-self and be "proven" that way and not ride on laurels on what an ancestor has done. Each generation has different genetic and environmental influences to make it what it will be able to do.

So if you are looking at "lineage" and there is some Colombian Paso influence in the lineage, and then the natives there used these horses to work cattle ranches in Colombia.... so does research show true that many of these horses had "heart" including large lung capacity from "working" and generations of being bred in a higher altitude in the Andes Mountains? That such be the case is one inherited physical aspect for "working" and holding up to "work".

In summary, don't call them a working horse unless they can really do the work themselves and hold up to it. What % of our Paso Finos are working horses today... that get out and "really" work day in and out? How many are weekend warrior mounts? How many are pasture ornaments and backyard pets?

some food for thought..........

[Terry Wallace]

In the QH world...from where I originally came....horses are advertised all the time as coming from working lines, halter lines or running lines.... they don't have to be proven in anything...lots of them in the sales are of course weanlings, yearling and on up....they have not yet even began a "career"....

It don't bother me a bit if someone says they have a horse from "Fino lines", "Pleasure lines", or "working lines".... If I were looking at a horse form working lines...I'd be expecting a horse with good confo, good bone, substancial feet, a horse that "looks" as though it could go all day... and that already had horses in its heritage that did work as ranch horses....

Seems as if some folks read way too much into a few words...

I have gone to so many horse sales where horses are from "reining lines", from "cutting lines", from "running blood" from "jumping lines" to "pleasure lines"... its generally the truth those owners are telling about those horses... not just a "catch phrase"... JMO!

Just some more food for thought...

[Cindy]

One can call them pink flamingos if one wants. But the difference in this breed and the QH breed is the when one says that a QH is from a certain type of line it means that that horse's ancestors have been successfully competed in that particular event. Those who market "working horses" in this breed don't seem to have quite the same backup of having proved that those particular ancestors ever did anything at all since the only competition that most of the breeding lines that are known have been in are horse shows. That is the difference. Not that Paso Finos did not in fact work. Just that one cannot varify the lineage as with a QH. Therefore a comparison of the two breeds is in fact apples and basketballs.

[CarolU]

Let me clarify. What I like isn't a specific genotype, that I know of. What I like is a specific phenotype: even conformation, broad build, big butt, the kind meant to move cattle.


I know some people here how breed these type of Paso Finos, just wonder if they are still bred in Colombia.

As you can see, I was actually asking about a stockier phenotype and what lines bred that. I am guessing, but by the response to two different threads, this stockier build actually comes from the influence of Puerto Rican lines in American bred Paso Finos and not from Colombia. My bad.

I used to have a Shetland pony who would chase cows. I wouldn't say she was from 'cattle working lines'.

PHENOTYPE --- a strong, dense bone, stout horse that is well muscled to move quickly off the hind end = good at cutting cows.

Get it? :confused::confused::confused::confused:

[SandyMM]

What do they work cattle with in Colombia? And are there large cattle ranches in PR?

Inquiring minds inquire....:D

[CarolU]

Sandy...this thread has been here for over a year. In that time ONE HORSE has been shown as an example of "cattle working lines" from Colombia. That was Coral LaCE, who you insist was a show horse and not a cow horse.

On the thread in the PR forum, several examples of great PHENOTYPE are presented..many are apparently the result of crossing PR and COL lines, but several NICE pure PR horses are also presented with beautiful phenotype.

Now, there may indeed be some stocky Paso Finos in Colombia. Pictures of Baron que tal and Mahoma, and a few others certainly look stocky and substantial. Just wondering if horses like them are still bred in Colombia.

But right now, by the evidence presented in the two threads, I'd have to conclude that the phenotype I like was bred right here in America, crossing PR and COL horses.

[SandyMM]

this thread has been here for over a year. In that time ONE HORSE has been shown as an example of "cattle working lines" from Colombia.
Carol, for years you have insisted that the que tal horses came from working cattle stock?

So let's get this cleared up - are you looking for the _ability_ of the que tal horses who were trained to work cattle by Dave Jones or the _look_ of a quarterhorse in a Paso package?

Seems like the body type you are looking for are Pasos that lean towards quarterhorse butts.

BTW, many show horses have more than one 'careeer field'....

[CarolU]

What does the word "phenotype" mean to you?

[SandyMM]

If you answer a question with a question - nothing is accomplished. It just prolongs the 'discussion'....

[GregM]

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
phe·no·type Audio Help /ˈfinəˌtaɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fee-nuh-tahyp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Genetics. 1. the observable constitution of an organism.
2. the appearance of an organism resulting from the interaction of the genotype and the environment.

Compare genotype.

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[Origin: < G Phänotypus (1909); see pheno-, -type]

I don't know what it means to anyone else, but this is what it means.