No Paso Finos allowed in Tennessee 4-H....

[FineStepFarm]

Just heard from the top,
Paso Fino's can't show in the gaited classes, because they are only for walking, racking and spotted saddle horses.
And here I was so excited to move to this wonderful gaited horse state!!
This is what is said:
"For some reason you are confused that we show by Breeds..( which ,by the
way I am OK with showing by breeds).. Our divisions are western,hunter
,walking /racking,saddle/english and spotted saddle horses(type not breed).
Then he said this:
We will never dilute our Walking ,Racking , and Spotted Saddle Horse
classes with other breeds.. The Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders and
Exhibitors Assn. has been our largest financial contributor.

Isn't this interesting?
What a spirit breaker, we have done 4-H for 9 years, and have never faced opposition like this.

Tammi

[Carol Nelson]

Money talks, eh? Too bad. :-?

[SandyMM]

What does the National 4-H associaton say?

[Terry Wallace]

HHhhmmmmmm...seems like they need another class added then...for Pasos and Rockies (?) :shock:

Is this guy the director? is there a national 4-H director?
Talk about discrimination!!! Is it because they do not know how to judge it?

[FineStepFarm]

This is what he said about the judges:

Your information about states having "non trotting" is correct...Why do
they have a couple of catch -all hodge -podge classes..The answer is
because they do not have enough gaited horses to justify classes for those
horses.. These catch- all classes do not just compare apples to oranges
but also grapes, bananas and pinapples.. Theses classes cannot be JUDGED,
they are just evaluated with someone's OPINION or PREFERENCE.. We refuse to
do that.. This past year at our state show, we had 57 gaited horse classes,
763 entries, 200 horses and 149 exhibitors. all judged by liscensed judges.

This is what he said about adding classes:

The possibility of having Paso Fino
horse classes at our state show based on the horse population of Tennessee
would be very small.We actually do not have classes for Quarter Horses just
a Western Division.

[ErinC]

Terri fixed this situation up here,
I bet she can help you out some.
:-?
why cant we get into anything.
it's just Crazy!

[Pasogirlz]

Isn't this interesting?
What a spirit breaker, we have done 4-H for 9 years, and have never faced opposition like this.


How have you been doing it this long? What classes/divisions have you been in until now? :idea:

[Terry Wallace]

.The answer is
because they do not have enough gaited horses to justify classes for those
horses..

That is something I have run into here also....probably some truth to that !

The Poor Paso Fino.... its up against it soooo much it seems the further west you go!

I think its because it just flat SCARES some folks because they have no idea how to judge it and there are fewer judges in these areas...BUT to exclude it entirely...that is JUST WRONG....

What if...you could come up with a judge for it...would they consider a class then? AND...don't go back to this guy...go to the National 4-H and be sure to SAVE those "somewhat nasty toned emails" for future reference!!!

[FineStepFarm]

In florida the classes are set up more generic, they really wanted all kids to participate, whatever horse they had, so we did saddleseat, then in 2005 we got non-trot saddleseat because we had so many gaited.

Its interesting, because the circuit is Area Show, State then Regionals. At Regionals they have a non-trot saddleseat and in the rule book in black and white it states this class is for Paso Fino's, TWH, etc.
We have been to Regionals 3 times from Florida, But here in Tennessee we can't even qualify!!

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

HMMMMMM!!!!!! Florida :roll: , SHOW :roll: , !!!!!! HMMMMMM sounds familiar...... :roll:

[Terri]

Hmmm, that is disappointing. I've always been told by 4H leaders that whatever breed (or non-reg) horse the child used as a project would be welcomed at the shows. The important part was the "project" how well the child learned horsemanship, horsekeeping, and progressed with training...etc. But we have lots of "open" classes. "4h open pleasure" "4h open equitation" 4H open showmanship" are standards at 4h shows. But I guess this is exactly the "hodge podge" they don't want to tolerate.

For other open classes, such as the western classes they mentioned, the judge simply calls for trot or "alternate gait". So we tend to show our horses in either 4H classes or open classes such as western or pony or green or w/t. What class we enter is dependant on which horse I am using and who the rider is (kid or adult or 4h member). We have placed well in these open classes.

I will talk to some 4h folks I know about what might be in the 4h bylaws, but I suspect it varies from state to state. I find it astounding that an organization that seems to be all about encouraging children in the area of their interest toward growth, seems to be willing to dictate what type of breed project is "acceptable". You don't see them banning qrt horses even though they haven't designated a special classes for them.

[Terri]

On further thought: I don't know how it is in TN, but here in MA, the 4h program is part of the University of Massachusetts education system. In other words it is considered an educational program supported somewhat by TAX DOLLARS. If the same is true in TN, it might not hurt to call your local state rep and ask if it is okay for them to discrimate against your child based on the type of breed of horse she happens to own.

[SandyMM]

I thought it was about the _kids_ - not the adult sponsors... :roll:

[Cindy]

I have never done 4H and don't know a lot about it but from all that I have ever heard, it is not breed specific. If I were you and cared enough to push the issue, I would be contacting whoever runs the National 4H Association and addressing this issue with them. I would also get a National 4H rule book if one exists, read through it and know it better than whoever I had to deal with in your local area.

[britzlove]

I am a huge supporter of 4-H and someone who competed nationally. I credit 4-H with so much you can't even believe all the lessons I was privy to...

I would certainly contact the Regional director...and the National execs. 4-H is for all children...and is NEVER supposed to contain that manner of attitude. They should (and have I know before) have paso fino classes for only one horse. Baring that...they cannot bar one breed without the others.

Supporter? No doubt the TWBEA is a heavy donator...still that should never figure into it. If you want some help..I'll help if I can...

I'm shocked to see this thread...

I'll be there in a couple weekends for the show anyway.

Britz

[pasoloco]

Tami I have never fooled with 4H but,You have a pinto paso how come you cant enter him in a class
Why wouldnt he qualify as well as a spotted saddle horse he gaits too??????

[britzlove]

Yeah...I guess there isn't much difference as far as 4-h would define...I might try entering those classes.

Or I'd still be contacting somebody...no adult associated with 4-H should act like that for any reason.

Britz

[Candice Burger]

Seems he may since I vaguely recall an open stud book for quite some time inviting any and all gaited "spotted" horses including pinto pasos.

Mr. 4-Her might need to be reminded of that little fact.

I wonder if Mr. 4-Her knows about the Saddlebreds and Morgans in his state too. Lots and lots of Saddlebreds in Middle TN.

Essentially he just issued a proclamation that the only recognized gaited horse in TN is the TN Walking horse and variants of the breed, Rackers and Spotted horses. I wonder if Mr. 4-Her knows about the Saddlebred history, oh so recent too, that made some great TN Walking horse champions.

[FineStepFarm]

They do have Trotting Saddleseat, horses in that class must walk, trot canter, so that's for the saddlebreds, morgans, arabians.

I do have a pinto, in fact I called to register him in the spotted saddle, just because I'm so mad!
They said that nowadays the spotted look just like TWH, just with spots, and Paso's have exaggerated hock action, which in the 4-H rule book can't have.

The Racking and Spotted registry's are both open registrations, but I guess they need to be very TWH looking to qualify.

I'm trying to turn over every stone!!

[pasoloco]

Can we as united horse owners get a petition up against the 4h not to discriminated any breed?
After all are they not supposed to be about animals and kids?

[Terri]

I am a little confused. Is this your child's club leader that is telling you that you child can't ride her project horse in the club show? or is this some higher up that has some how managed to "standardized" all 4h club shows. Around here the clubs sponsor their own shows and prepare their own class list and all members' project horses are welcome.

If it is just your club, find a new club. If it is TN as a state that has confused 4h, which is an educational organization, with the TWH association, which is dedicate to perserving the integrity of the TWH, then change needs to happen at the state level.

According to 4HUSA.org 4-H is a community of young people across America who are learning leadership, citizenship and life skills. Sounds like your 4H organization has lost sight of that goal.

Of all the show organizations around here, I have found 4H to be the MOST welcoming of my pasos.
Here is my daughter's 4H club's website. As you can see the kids love to play with Mico.

http://www.secondchancefarm.biz/hottotrots4h.html

[Terry Wallace]

If you do as PasoLoco suggests...I'd sure be glad to sign it...
I'll bet you could get a LOT of signatures of this one BB alone.... ;-)

[El Indio Elegante]

I have not run into that problem with South Carolina yet. I am the only real avid rider of the pasos here. When i went to state 2 years ago there were 3 pasos including mine. The South Carolina agent is very familiar with me and went on my word with things because the judges didn't know. Next year i am planning on doing a demonstration as far as public speaking about the pasos. I've been to eastern nationals twice so far as far as hippology and horse bowl and hopefullly judging this year. I want to bring to these peoples attention about the paso fino. Do you think this could do any help if i made it to regionals and eastern nationals? It is a year from now but it's a start

[FineStepFarm]

This is the HEAD of the horse dept. at the 4-H extension in Nashville.

We joined 4-H months ago, never thinking that we couldn't show, everyone knows that we have Paso's. Then we had a clinic last weekend about showing. They said we couldn't go in the walking or racking, so I was shocked, so I e-mailed and called the head guy.
After talking to some parents, they said we COULD show in racking, as long as we wore the saddleseat attire, BUT, if the dept head finds out, and since I am stirring the pot, so to speak, I don't know if I want my kids to go through that. We had so many great years in Florida.
Also, he said, we can get a class at the county level then try for area and state, but then he said in his e-mail the possiblities of adding the classes for tennessee horse pop. are small. So I think he's giving me the run-around.
Plus, I told him I never asked for Paso classes, we just wanted to be able to show!

Opinions wanted, do we do racking and hope we don't get caught, or just chuck it?

GRRR!!

[Terry Wallace]

Whatcha do..is you get with the gal in the post above yours...El Indio..and you get the name of the SC 4-H person who handles the allowing of Paso Finos in 4-H there...and you get them to BACK YOU in your Tennessee endeavor.... you share the emails you have gotten from the 'Anti-Paso" Tennessean, and you go from there...because it just is not right and you can't let someone else's predjudices keep you from showing a horse every bit as good as..if not better than what is already being shown...and you do this with the intent to show that 4-H should hold NO predjudices....even against a horse breed....

In other words..YOU GO GIRL.... and if you need signatures, or letters...you come back here and get them...we all know how to type!
many of us are Paso breeders....both past & present....and the Paso DESERVES a voice...even in Tennessee....!!

[cristy]

I definately would NOT chuck it. We must teach our children to stand up for themselves. Bottom line I would go through the proper chanels but MAKE them let you show, I am sure that the national 4H HQ would not approve of the calous descrimination.. 4 H is about the kids period. (JMHO)

[Candice Burger]

Hmm, well again I recall showing pasos in open racking classes that weren't 4 H and even tried a speed racking class once.

If the class calls for specific appointments and you/horse have them, who cares if you put a QH in a racking class? That's up to the owner to decide that. Now if it were a "breed" show that would be different.

So is Mr 4-Her saying he offers "breed" classes or what? Maybe he needs to reclarify his explanation. I'm trying to follow. There is no other "breed" requirement for western, hunter/jumper but for the gaited classes? I mean I could show a paso in hunter/jumper right as long as I had the appointments for me and my horse. Or does a h/j have to trot instead of gait. I am confused.

[Cindy]

I would still contact the head of the National Association and see what they say. Oh, and find a rule book if they exist.

[FineStepFarm]

The last e-mail I got from the dept. head:

"Hello My Friend
Thanks for sharing all the wonderful awards and recognition that you and
your family has recieved.. I am sure you have a fine family and I wish you
well in Tennessee.. Perhaps I can share some of the accomplishments of our
Tennessee youth with you some day..

For some reason you are confused that we show by Breeds..( which ,by the
way I am OK with showing by breeds).. Our divisions are western,hunter
,walking /racking,saddle/english and spotted saddle horses(type not breed).

Your information about states having "non trotting" is correct...Why do
they have a couple of catch -all hodge -podge classes..The answer is
because they do not have enough gaited horses to justify classes for those
horses.. These catch- all classes do not just compare apples to oranges
but also grapes, bananas and pinapples.. Theses classes cannot be JUDGED,
they are just evaluated with someone's OPINION or PREFERENCE.. We refuse to
do that.. This past year at our state show, we had 57 gaited horse classes,
763 entries, 200 horses and 149 exhibitors. all judged by liscensed judges.

Even though you have yet to participate in any of our events, I find it
amusing that you are able to evaluate our program..I repeat,no state does
as much of all the kids as does Tennessee.

Oops, I almost forgot this piece of information..
In 1992,I begged the Southern Regional horse specialists to separate the
Arabians. Morgans,and Saddlebreds from the Walking Horses.Racking
Horses,and Spotted SaddleHorses. These classes were previously unjudgable
because of all the differences of the horses and the fact that we
typically got an Arabian type judge for these classes... our Tennessee
kids were left out in the cold..However ,the horses specialists agreed and
a new division was formed.They said " Meadows ,what are we going to call
the division?". I coined the term NON-TROTTERS and the name became the
division name. Then it wasn't long before some of the states (like
Florida)added NON-TROTTING classes to thier state show.
Then ,in 2005 at a meeting in Atlanta ,I sold the group on making
another break... the non-trotting classes had gotten so big because of the
large number of Walking Horses that we made a pleasure and an equitation
class just for Walking Horses.
The main reason was appropriate judging by liscened judges and not just
GUESSES .As numbers dictate, classes were formed to meet the needs of the
youth.It has been a gradual process.

We will never dilute our Walking ,Racking , and Spotted Saddle Horse
classes with other breeds.. The Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders and
Exhibitors Assn. has been our largest financial contributor to our program
and The Tennessee Walking Horse National Celebration was recognized last
week at 4-H Congress for over one -half million dollars of in-kind gifts to
the 4-H horse program.Hope you find this information helpful.
Doyle"

I called the head of the 4-H youth (not horse) and she will be looking into.
I just hope I'm not cutting off my nose to spite my face :shock:

[El Indio Elegante]

I am willing to do anything possible. I am an avid 4-her. I have shown in the SC state 4h show previously and the extension agent was willing to learn. Why can't other 4-h agents be open minded? I hate people that are so narrow minded that their breed is the only one there is. I have learned everything I have from the Paso Finos. I have done a presentation before on the pasos but i was only a junior at the moment. The judges listened and were willing and learned quite alot. The year I went to eastern nationals (2 years ago) i was the youngest to go from my state and again i have to say all my accomplishments were from the paso finos. Our team took 10th place overall, 1st place team problem, 5th place judging, and 9th place written exam. I would be happy to forward anything you would like to my 4-h agent. She even accepted my paso to go into h/j classes because he can jump. If there is anything i can do please tell me. I'm willing to make a stand for the paso fino horse. I am tired of all these people discriminating against the breed.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I think is time to have a formal representation from our breed speak out.

I like to urge your REGIONAL to stand............ THE UNITED WAY!!!!!!

[Terri]

OMG, what a self centered, self congratulatory jerk! I did this, I did that.....blah, blah, blah. And a bit condiscending to boot.

I'd go in what ever class you have the correct appointment for. Go in the racking class (no specific breed is required) go in Western pleasure. Just be everywhere.

Indio, what classed do you regularly show in at a 4H show?

[El Indio Elegante]

i showed in saddle seat equitation(non trotting), paso pleasure, saddle type geldings non trotting. jr/sr showmanship. I was also going to show in some of the jumping classes but i dont remember which ones. I never went to that state show though to be able to compete. the only rule they had with that was that i had to wear the h/j attire and it had to be a snaffle bit. I qualified for regionals but never went. I would have shown in the saddle seat nontrotting class.

[FineStepFarm]

I think its interesting that the western lets in all stock horses, Apps, QH, Paints.
Saddleseat has Arabian, Morgans and Saddlebreds
Hunter has warmbloods and all the stocks,
But gaited only has Racking, Walking and Spotted Saddle
That seems a bit biased.
He said I can't go in racking because he said:

"as of now we do not have classes for Paso Fino
horses. Obviously their attire and gait would keep them from meeting class
standards as we have them now..we have 160 classes @ our state show.. about
twice as many as most states but it has been a gradual process"

Florida only had 55 classes but we could still participate.

Also all that nonsense about oranges and apples, I wonder how the Westminister Dog Show does it, Best of Show is all breeds.

And more people are into dogs with more $$$$ than horses
Tammi

[CarolU]

4-H is not supposed to be breed specific, and in fact should NOT be! It is paid for by YOUR TAX DOLLARS!!!! It is run by the local Extention Service which is usually associated with the State Ag College or University.

Yeah...I'd be on the PHONE!

[CarolU]

This is a page from your state's web site:

http://www.utextension.utk.edu/4H/aboutus/mission-vision.htm

At the bottom of this page it says:

Delivers programs through cooperative efforts of the University of Tennessee, Tennessee State University, and public and private sector volunteers.

These are YOUR education tax dollars and your kids have as much right to participate as ANY.

Here is your horse program site. That man needs to go there and read it. No where does it say ANYTHING about keeping the gaited classes TWH-ONLY!

http://www.utextension.utk.edu/4H/projects/horse.htm

Go GET EM!!!!

[Helene]

Several years ago, my kids tried to show our Paso Fino in 4-H here in Southern Colorado. We didn't have ANY gaited horse classes. I attended a meeting to present the board with a petition to enter Pasos....They all were kind of unfriendly and very discouraging. They didn't know how they would judge Pasos. I gave them a tape....but gave up real fast. This here is "quarter- and paint horse country"....My kids started showing in Paso Shows, instead, and took leather craft and cake decorating in 4-H.

[Fuego]

Tammi, sounds like you simply ran into a knuckle-head within the 4-H program. Like others have stated, I also had a great experience with 4-H as a kid. And it was always about the KIDS and INCLUSION.

Simply let the Nat'l office know this guy is restricting your children's participation in 4-H based on the breed of horses they ride. Basic discrimination.

Also, you might try seeking support from your PFHA region. Explain the problem and perhaps they could assist be finding a PFHA judge willing to donate their time to judge or educate the 4-H judges. At least to ease your foot in the door...

[El Indio Elegante]

I have looked up the rule book for tennessee. They do not offer a gaited class in general. There maybe ways to work around it though. Here is the link to the rule book http://animalscience.ag.utk.edu/horses/pdf/4-H/4-HHorseChampionshipHandbook_rev2003.pdf
Look under the racking division. Please explain to me how what they are describing is any different from the paso fino. Also, under racking equitation in paranthesis they have saddle seat. At the regional show the pasos show under nontrotting saddle seat. I may not live in tennessee but this is a battle that needs to be won.

[lisa l aka marci]

Ok I posted this on Sunday but will repost it here....did that 'person' say they don't offer the Country Pleasure class? According to the rules Pasos would qualify!

My younger sister showed my mare Rosie in 4-H back in the early 1990's......and brought home ribbons!

What I remember is that she had to explain to the judges what the gaits were, and what the 'equivilant' gait was with a Paso.

Hmm.....looking at the Tenn. 4-H rules, the kids could show in
Quote:
14. Country Pleasure: Speciality
14.1. Classes
A. Class 320 – Junior members
B. Class 321 – Senior members
14.2. This is a two-gaited class. Horses should display a walk and
a smooth, easy, comfortable intermediate gait. Excessive speed in
the intermediate gait will be penalized.
14.3. Neat attire is acceptable with tack optional.
14.4. Shoeing requirements are the same as for Plantation Pleasure
Lite Shod.
14.5. Horses entered in Country Pleasure are only eligible to show
in the following classes: Conformation (Halter), Showmanship and
Grooming, Walking Seat Equitation and Trail.


Quote:
Saddle and English Division
This division is designed for “pleasure type” horses (Arabian,
Morgan, Saddlebred, etc.) and will be judged according to those
standards. Stock type horses should NOT enter this division. Proper
attire must be maintained at all times. However, in excessively hot
weather, with the approval of the judge, coats may be removed.


As for having to braid if showing in classes - that is optional - Quote:
may be braided.
as far as I can tell.

Gee, if you have any horses broken to drive, they could enter there too....
Quote:
1.7. Entries are to be worked both ways of the ring at a walk,
ordinary trot (pleasure) or favorite gait, and extended trot (road
trot) or favorite gait.

[CarolU]

You know, they could offer an Open 'Prefered Gait' Pleasure class, like they do at all other open gaited breed shows.

I grew up in 4-H. It is a GREAT program, even got a scholorship to college and judging classes paid for. Don't let your kids miss this program. It is YOUR program...not HIS.

But, sadly, you'll have to fight for it.

I know they had open gaited classes here in Utah that included Paso Finos. All our local kids competed in them, along with pole bending, barrel racing, halter, and jumping.

[reuben T]

I've seen a lot of it in TN, personal bias, prejudice, narrowmindedness, a lot of times money gets in the mix, sounds like that's a good share of the problem here, posibly along with some personal bias for TWH on the part of the man in charge. he may see a danger of some competition for his favorate horses and wants to keep them out if he can. I've noticed a lot of organizations and clubs run by local people suffer from internal conflict and personal bias, some even colapsing from it. The more successful ones usually are run by people from elsewhere, or at least people who's parents were from elsewhere. Sometimes it looks like our local county government just barely keeps going with all the controversy, dishonesty, and disruption it suffers from.
You could either fight it directly, and get into the shows anyway. (might make enemys doing that) Or indirectly, and create new classes or do seperate performaces. looks like you will have to stay out of the strictly TWH classes to make em happy. How bout a special presentation kind of like what's done at a horse fair except you'd not be limited to 3-4 minutes. might could run it 10 minutes or more. with traditional costume, traditional music, and a historical comentary on the breed, for the education of all the horse show kids. they'd have to be really outlandishly prejudiced to be against that.

[lisa l aka marci]

Tenn 4-h contact info........

Contact Tennessee 4-H
State 4-H Office
205 Morgan Hall
2621 Morgan Circle
Knoxville, TN 37996-4510

Phone: 865-974-2128
Fax: 865-974-1628
Email: ssutton2@utk.edu


Local 4-H Offices
Every county in Tennessee has its own 4-H Club(s), and each county offers unique 4-H programs and activities. For more information about the 4-H Club near you, please contact the Extension office in your county.

[LeAnn]

We have a smaller but just as frustrating a problem here in IL. Our pasos are allowed to show in the gaited classes one is pleasure the other is Equitation. But they also have a western pleasure class for the non QH type horses. We have showed in it every yr since the started it and placed. They have now kicked us out of it. The fair board is made up of folks who would be more then happy to get rid of the gaited horses all together. The arabs that show in that class have a ton of classes just for them we have 2 and they wont let us shwo in this one class.

[motorgypsy]

What a bummer!!

First of all one can only assume that since South Carolina and North Carolina judges have no problem judging classes with mixed breeds (Our boarding barn owner is a certified allbreed judge who tells us that each breed is to be judged by the criteria for that breed during a mixed class) that perhaps there is a mental limitation that prevents Tennessee judges from doing so??? All that inbreeding perhaps? Yes that was said tongue in cheek but I would be furious if my child were excluded from showing when it's my tax dollars supporting 4H.

Secondly I would indeed get as much information from states who do mixed breeds and talk to as many other TN paso fino owners as you can find (PFHA can help there) to show that the population of paso finos is increasing and that the goal of 4H is not to provide a breed specific experience for a child so this goes against the stated goals of the organization. And yes we'd be glad to sign a petition.

[reuben T]

oh! I just caught something there, Look's like that feller is so ignorant about paso fino's that he can't speak intelligently about them. I think I'd ignor the guy in charge and go anyway, take a paso with decent range of gait and enter several appropraite TWH/racking classes, just see what happens, and if someone tries to tell you that you can't enter that horse, make em make a stink about it and make em make themselves look bad. If someone tries to stop ya just tell em, "why can't I, if the judge dosn't like the way the horse goes he dosn't have to place im" I'll bet he's never seen a paso do a good largo, probably dosn't even know they exsist. Sneak in under their noses, maybe they won't notice till it's too late.
There's more than one way to get pushy.