The last e-mail I sent to Tennessee 4-H...Long

[FineStepFarm]

My reply's are black, 4-H is red.

"Hello,

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You stated in your e-mail " For some reason you are confused that we show by Breeds..( which ,by the
way I am OK with showing by breeds).. Our divisions are western,hunter
,walking /racking,saddle/english and spotted saddle horses(type not breed.
Then in the same e-mail " We will never dilute our Walking ,Racking , and Spotted Saddle Horse
classes with other breeds.. The Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders and
Exhibitors Assn. has been our largest financial contributor to our program
and The Tennessee Walking Horse National Celebration was recognized last
week at 4-H Congress for over one -half million dollars of in-kind gifts to
the 4-H horse program.Hope you find this information helpful.
The breed association $$$ dictates the classes? If I have a substantial donation I can get any classes I want and exclude anyone I don't want?

So you have managed to take a inclusive 4-H program and promote only TWH and their derivatives the Racking and Spotted Saddle horses in the catch all name "gaited division" while excluding any gaited horse that is not a TWH or its phenotype.

Also you urged me to start at the local level by adding classes,you wrote "My recommendation would
be to try to have a class at the county show for these type horses. The
State and Regional shows respond to class needs from across the state and
region. If there was a groundswell of any type of horse or event (ie
dressage,Spotted Saddle Horses) then eventually those classes would be put
in at the state and regional level as is the case with the aforementioned
class and breed type".But then you stated "The possibility of having Paso Fino
horse classes at our state show based on the horse population of Tennessee
would be very small.
I referenced how 7 out of 10 states in the Southern Region have a gaited division, but only Tennessee is inclusive of TWH phenotypes.
Then you stated: These catch- all classes do not just compare apples to oranges
but also grapes, bananas and pinapples.. Theses classes cannot be JUDGED,
they are just evaluated with someone's OPINION or PREFERENCE.

You have done a fine job of promoting your type of horse. I shudder to think how many children you have turned away from 4-H because of your narrow mindedness. 4-H is an inclusive program that is supposed to encourage and educate. you said "In 1992,I begged the Southern Regional horse specialists to separate the
Arabians. Morgans,and Saddlebreds from the Walking Horses.Racking
Horses,and Spotted SaddleHorses. These classes were previously unjudgable
because of all the differences of the horses and the fact that we
typically got an Arabian type judge for these classes... our Tennessee
kids were left out in the cold..However ,the horses specialists agreed and
a new division was formed.They said " Meadows ,what are we going to call
the division?". I coined the term NON-TROTTERS and the name became the
division name. Then it wasn't long before some of the states (like
Florida)added NON-TROTTING classes to thier state show.
Then ,in 2005 at a meeting in Atlanta ,I sold the group on making
another break... the non-trotting classes had gotten so big because of the
large number of Walking Horses that we made a pleasure and an equitation
class just for Walking Horses.
And when you state the judging difficulties "These catch- all classes do not just compare apples to oranges
but also grapes, bananas and pinapples.. Theses classes cannot be JUDGED,
they are just evaluated with someone's OPINION or PREFERENCE"

According to Webster’s New World dictionary, the
word “judge” means “to form an opinion or estimation
of after careful consideration.” When you judge a
horse—whether in a show, on an individual basis, or in
a contest—you form an opinion or estimation about that
horse.

Westminster Dog Show is a very elite organization, their Best in Show is comprised of all the different breeds. I wonder how they do it?

I know we shouldn't show in the TWH classes because Paso's do not have the extension. Just like we shouldn't show in stock classes because we don't trot.

According to the Tennessee Rule Book, the Rack is a evenly-spaced 4-beat gait. Paso Fino's do a evenly spaced 4-beat gait, a flat walk, a slow gait and a fast gait. So as long as we get the proper attire, why can't we show in this class?


Tammi Bieniek"


So that's the whole story. I find it ironic that I moved to a gaited horse state. And is nicknamed the Volunteer state only to find my gaited and volunteering spirit is not wanted.
I did contact the head of the 4-H program, who is above the horse program and she is looking into it.

I am also looking into possibly joining Georgia or South Carolina 4-H.
They are very close, and I really didn't want to make any enamies here but I think I just hanged myself
:cry: :cry: :cry:

I've only lived here for 8 months!!!

[Terry Wallace]

Tammi...that is great! I love the dog show analogy too!!!

[Heidi]

Grrrrrooowwwwllllll.... Go get 'em!

Speaking of the dog show analogy... It isn't just Best In Show, but the group classes, too. The Group classes are different BREEDS of dogs competing against each other. Toy group, working group, herding group and so on...each group is represented by numerous breeds. BIS takes the winner of each group and they compete against each other for BIS.
If the dog judges can do that, why cannot a horse judge?

[Terry Wallace]

Hey Tammi.... I was just thinking...I wonder how many Paso owner & breeders are in Tennessee? There is Deb Deckert, Judy Johnson, Hollis Gammon, Tami Pinell (she has MANY Pasos) ...yourself, and I wonder how many more...surely that is only the tip of the iceberg..... it might help your case....maybe the PFHA can tell you....I'm sure I am forgetting some more names...
Probably not as many PF people as TWH people...but...???

[britzlove]

Good Job Tammi! Well put...be sure to let us know what the latest reply is.

Britz

[Barbwire]

Go Tammi, good for you! I can't wait to see how this all turns out.

http://bestsmileys.com/horses1/7.gif

[El Indio Elegante]

very welll stated. May i ask how close you are to South Carolina? Just a curiosity. I wish i had done my paso fino presentation this year instead of next but at least then it will be a start.

[FineStepFarm]

Hello, I am actually 1 hour from Georgia and I think 45 mins from North Carolina, I misstyped when I said South Carolina. I deid contact Georgia and was welcomed with oipen arms, but now that I feel so wronged I think I'm going to stay and fight this man's prejudice.
Tammi

[Terry Wallace]

YES...way to go..dats what we wanna hear....!

If you do a petition...just let us all know..... ;-)

[Fuego]

Well done Tammi.

If you take on this fight, perhaps you could contact the local media and get this jerks words published. A bit of negative publicity aimed at this jerk may get the type of attention this jerk doesn't want. Especially if you focus on key points such as your children being dicriminated against so this jerk can use 4-H as a marketing tool for the TW breed. His bias is quite evident in his reply to you.

[Cindy]

Hey Mitch, do you think this guy is a jerk? Just wondering as it was unclear in your previous post. :twisted:

[Fuego]

hehe... I thought of many words to describe the jerk, but the word "jerk" was the only one I could think of at the moment that wouldn't get censored :razz:

[Cindy]

That's OK. We know what you wanted to say.

[Heidi]

Did you consider self righteous bastar.... Hm. How about aggrandizing ah...hooo... Hm. Pompous shi...he..he..he..he. Hm.
I guess jerk covers it pretty well.

[reuben T]

there's a lot of TWH exclusivity in TN, so he's gonna have plenty of sympathy in his stand, but people in such positions as 4H show managers need to squash their personal bias for the kids sake, unfortunatly some people use their positions to propagate personal bias. I would think in an all breed show there'd be quite a few sutable classes for any kind of horse, and when it comes down to it, there would be a lot of freedom as to what horse goes in what class, more up to the horse owner than any show personell. and if the horse didn't perform up to class standards it just wouldn't get placed, or be the last one in the line. At least that's what I've seen happen. But if someone says the paso can't show, that's just wrong, that's something to combat.

A speed racker has a 4 beat gait with high action, a largo has the same 4 beat with low action. In a speed racking class would they judge the largo as inferior because of the low action? In which case a paso would loose to a TWH or racking horse, but who's gonna prevent the paso from entering the class? They'd have to be TWH biased and afraid the TWH would suffer loss of credibility to even want to prevent it.
If I was doing it, I'd take a good paso horse and enter every class it could posibly be halfway compatable with, and if someone tries to say I can't enter a class, I'd ask "why not? are you fraid it's gonna win? I'd rather let the class judge decide that, and if the horse dosn't do good at it it just won't win anything."

[Fuego]

The 4-H program I grew up in was extremely inclusive for any child regardless of how obscure their chosen'project' was.
There was bias and favortism in our horse program (county level) towards the WP riders, but they also consisted of the vast majority. But the 'gamers' were NEVER told that there was NO place for us because of the events we chose to compete in. And no one was ever excluded because of the breeding of their horse.
And no classes were breed oriented. Classes were divided by rider age, and pony/horse.
The 4-H I participated in was about the kids first, always.

[FineStepFarm]

Yes, we,ve been involved in 4-H in Florida for 9 years and never were we excluded! In fact I've never asked for gaited classes. My daughter won High Point in English Pleasure a few years ago. and the other parents demanded that we get gaited classes!
Then at area and state shows the gaited started to outnumber the trotting saddleseat 2-1, and the arena was so small that it was starting to get dangerous, so then I asked for a non-trot and trot split.
But I've never run into what is going on here in Tennessee.
Tammi

[sporthorse]

I was going to try to stay out but this is so blatnetly shameless that I have to tell you to approach this moron with a simple challenge to his inferiority complex.
Dear sir, just because your preciuous TWH horses that were once paso finos then "diluted" by inferior gait to increase size does not mean that they may not occassionally get a ribbon when paso finos are shown with them in the gaited classes. I am sure you need a horse that big to carry your overly large pompous self . The pride in a breed is a fine thing and the youth should have a chance to earn that pride with true competition.Unless of course you are afraid that "your" trained judges may not be as loyal and biased to the big breeders of TWH as they are to gait and integrity. You should not foolishly speak for them ( or any body of people other than your own transparent narrow minded mouth since you have trouble with tact and grace.If they are any kind of judges then when they see a TWH that can do as well as a paso fino then maybe you will have something to be proud of. Until then your children and senior competitors can not compete with the abilty of being prepared for real challenges and even playing fields and that is one of the purposes of having sporting chances to grow into well rounded adults unlike you.

[Cindy]

:lol: Sporthorse, I am not sure that that approach would get the best results. But it was fun to write, wasn't it? :lol:

[Terri]

Hey Sporthorse, I have a list of people I would like to write letters to, wanna help? I like your style.

[sporthorse]

:-? Cindy.yes Fun :bad bannana /I would not let Lindsay have at the cad, she goes for the jugular. But we have taught each other things by osmosis. I know aproaches are best done sensitive when results are expected so any result is better than where they are now.I will stay out but use anything and everything you can.
Terri, anytime I can be of assistance I am yours.

[motorgypsy]

I LOVE it!!!

[corrielainedd]

Ya i had problems with that too.
Both myself and my friend so Pasos, Hers is a professionally trained show mare. We were in the RACKING classes, not Walking, but we were the only RACKING horses. Everyone else were Walkers. we were told by many people that she and I out racked everyone in all of our classes.
The judge, is a walking horse judge.
In the bigger classes, she would call out numbers (non placing) to leave, all which were the ones who did crappy or couldnt ride. Then, you could tell, she excused my friend and I directly before the placing horses!!
It pissed me off sooooo bad.

PLUS!!! I brought a Paso filly for the OI yearling halter class, there were 3 horses all together in the class, same judge. The other two were walkers, one was spotted ( so was mine) it was ugly, under weight and its legs were swollen. The other was a wierd color, looked like a QH but was a walker. It wasnt a yearling, the girl said it was a year old when she signed him up, but yet she was riding him around too, because hes a trained two year old!!!! , then ther was Dosey, the one i was showing, beautiful, but Paso filly, dark bay pinto, gaits, was the best looking (not bragging, but she really was), best behaved, and she placed us last,...... she place the under weight one first! and the horse went nuts during judging, tried to kick the judge, and was barely under control and almost got away about 5 times!!

WTF!!!! ERG!!!!

[corrielainedd]

Also!

our 4h had a breed specific, Rockie mountain classes. And they didnt have very many in it. I went to the council meeting, and pushed for a paso class, there are more showing pasos than rockies!!

[sporthorse]

:mad: I read both the latest official and this post again and want to point out what Corrie has said about racking horses and you could present your paso fino to a racking horse commissioner and have your paso fino(s) registered asracking horses. There is one commissioner near us that has known Lindsay for 20 something years and offered or should I say asked her if she wanted to register her paso finos as racking horses. they trail rode togetehr and the commissoners hubby was actually Lindsay's farrier until his back gave out and now he only does his horses(he was too tall to do short pasos I guess) (Lindsay's friend Sandy is= is a TWH breeder) and was Lindsays neighbor in two differant cities. First in Tampa and also Dowling Park, Florida.
of course you have to pay to have them registered as racking horses/many gaited horse ownwers that do not have papers do this.

[lovetogait]

oooh....I can hardly wait to get to Tennessee. I fought this battle here in California when my daughter wanted to show our paso fino mare in 4-H classes. They had never seen a paso fino before but I managed to get her in there and she opened a lot of doors, plus had a great time.

The TWH thing is a hard nut to crack...especially in TN ....you will have to do a lot of work to educate them but hang in there. I will be there by midsummer and will join you in your quest. There are lots of pf people in the state. Get them to join you and EDUCATE these ignorant folks....there is more than one way to gait!

[ASB.Immortality]

:mad: I read both the latest official and this post again and want to point out what Corrie has said about racking horses and you could present your paso fino to a racking horse commissioner and have your paso fino(s) registered asracking horses. There is one commissioner near us that has known Lindsay for 20 something years and offered or should I say asked her if she wanted to register her paso finos as racking horses. they trail rode togetehr and the commissoners hubby was actually Lindsay's farrier until his back gave out and now he only does his horses(he was too tall to do short pasos I guess) (Lindsay's friend Sandy is= is a TWH breeder) and was Lindsays neighbor in two differant cities. First in Tampa and also Dowling Park, Florida.
of course you have to pay to have them registered as racking horses/many gaited horse ownwers that do not have papers do this.

I very highly doubt that you will get them commissioned as a Racking Horse if they are seen personally. You may say they are closer to a Racking Horse but they aren't. Especially if you have to say you have three feet on the ground. That is a TWH trait. A Racking horse will only have one foot on the ground, like a Single Footer.

Example:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b185/stormy_warning/Turbo2005.jpg
National Racking Amatuer and Rookie Walkingbred World Champion ~ Mtn. Man's Turbo~

We meet alot of people that think our Racking Horses have the TWH gait. Not even close. There is a big difference if you ever ride the two.

On the other hand... the guy is a jerk. Stick with it and make him wish he had never meet you. ;-)

[sporthorse]

ASB ,some may not be aware of the fact one of the two foundation sires for the North american singlefootting association is a paso fino by the name of Coral LaCE and beside the fact that the TWH and other gaited breeds came from paso finos which are the Americas first horse historically(this America's lifetime around =eohippous before). Paso finos and native breeds of criollos,USA's marsh tackies, Cracker horses,original gaited morgans and spanish mustangs can naturally rack ,also singlefoot when extended in/from "correct" phenotypical gait if phisically pure enough genotypically(not diluted by TB & etc.)
http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1070397493036800480TXsyBe?vhost=sports
this link is to a Coral LaCE son roadstering in a near rack possible singlefoot or whatever???or maybe a rack? I don't have the expertise nor do I care whether or not he racks. I am no commissooner but like I said one who is an official saw a registered paso fino of Lindsay's and said he is a racking horse registered name is Rayo de Floresta.

[Mellifluous]

Hey Sporthorse, where is the MP post? What did I miss? :mad:

[reuben T]

could you actually register a largo paso as a racking horse? Every body in TN knows what a racking horse is, they're popular. If that'd work they could enter the racking classes as an official racking horse.

[reuben T]

**found it;*

The RHBAA has two procedures for registration. The primary procedure involves a foal out of two registered Racking Horses and is called pedigree registration.* The sire and dam must be registered racking at the time of service in order for the foal to be eligible for pedigree registration.* Sire, dam, and foal must all be blood-typed before a registration is complete.* Stallion Reports are required.* To obtain the application and additional information to register, please contact RHBAA.

** The RHBAA has also re-opened its books for registration.* This means you may have your horse commission registered if he/she is performing a four-beat gait verified by a licensed commissioner.* All commission registered horses born in 1994 and after must be blood-typed to be registered.* We encourage new registrations into our breed.*

$50 for a member, $100 for nonmember

[ASB.Immortality]

Yes, but gait wise, if a Paso is correctly gaiting then it shouldn't be commisioned. If it is, and the RHBAA sees it, they will more than likely pull that persons license to commission horses. Same with United Racking.

[ASB.Immortality]

could you actually register a largo paso as a racking horse? Every body in TN knows what a racking horse is, they're popular. If that'd work they could enter the racking classes as an official racking horse.

You might be able too. The gait would just have to be inspected to see if it falls in the racking category. Just hard to say without seeing it. Most of the ones I have seen could fall into a Racking class but they really don't fit in. Mel can explain what I mean when I say they don't quite fit in.

[Mellifluous]

The footfall is close, but not quite like a racking horse - the main difference is execution - extension and speed.

If you want a paso that is a true paso, it will never fly as a racking horse. Not quite apples and oranges, more like apples and pears.