Another Versatility question....

[PasoPerson38]

What is the class criteria for Versatility?
I know you must walk, corto, largo, and a jump...
Do you have to dismount and remount or canter?

[PattiB]

You have to corto, largo, walk and canter both directions. Individual work off is done with a figure eight at the corto, back and canter over the jump.

[motorgypsy]

Yes canter and a true canter, not a lope.

Can't remember what else though.

[PasoPerson38]

Does anyone know if canter is asked for in trail? ( Besides when going up to a jump)

[Cindy]

Canter may be asked for in trail It is in the class description. Depends on the show committee/judge.

[PasoPerson38]

Really?
So country pleasure is the only specialty class where canter is not included?
Well I guess costume, driving, and leadline won't have to canter either :lol:

[CarolU]

Don't forget, the canter is supposed to be on the correct lead, and in Versatility, it should be collected also.

[Cindy]

The trail class used to not have the canter but then someone decided that Paso Finos should not jump from the gait but only from the canter so they put canter in the class description and now you have to jump from the canter. I personally prefered it the other way as it opened the class up to more participants than only those whose horses are trained to canter. But what do I know.

[PasoPerson38]

I agree with you Cindy...
My horse can jump perfectly well from a corto, but now I have to teach it to canter? Why, when the horse already can prove that it can jump.

[Cindy]

Beats me. :roll:

[Privatetreaty]

They'll ask you to canter to approach a jump?

[Cindy]

Yes and they may also ask for a canter between the obstacles if they chose to. Many shows do not use the jump in trail as it requires everyone to wear a helmet so it kind of depends on where you are showing as to what is asked.

[Privatetreaty]

When I started over cavaletti's, back in 1971, I was taught to approach the jump at a trot (I didn't own Pasos was back then).

Please, no offense intended ---> For Paso folks, whom most may not have had proper formal jump education, I think it's irresponsible to ask for an approach at a canter.




Hey PasoPerson38, what part of the country are you in?


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[Cindy]

PT, a horse that is starting jumping will start at a trot but will then move on to jumping at a canter. Most show jumping is done at a canter. Why do you find this irresponsible?

[Privatetreaty]

Cindy, you are absolutely correct. A horse will come out of the jump at a canter.

But, if a person is not experienced jumping horses, you'll have less chances of problems/accidents, if the approach is at a corto.

If you know what you're doing, it's a totally different story. I've seen horses dump their riders at a corto at shows (and not just once), simply because the rider lost his balance.

Plus, look at the saddle that most folks go into these classes using. Certainly not condusive to jumping.



Boy, do I wish we could all meet somewhere and play around with some of the theories we've been tossing around for a long while now.


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[Cindy]

I agree, corto would be a safer approach. However, if one is jumping at a show, shouldn't that person be advanced enough to approach the jump at a canter? If not, shouldn't they get more advanced in their riding skills before showing? Even the 2 ft classes in beginner hunter requires jumping from the canter. They may trot the first fence but they canter the rest of the class.

And understand I am just saying this as food for thought as I do not agree with making trail horses canter for the reason that I stated before. And I most definitely did not agree with the reasoning presented to require a canter to the jump. The reasoning was that a jump should only be approached in a diagonal gait i.e. trot or canter. I disagree with this and find no justification for necessitating a diagonal gait to approach a jump. But the rule was passed regardless of whether or not the reasoning was correct.

[PasoPerson38]

PT I'm in warm Miami Florida!!!

[Privatetreaty]

I agree, corto would be a safer approach. However, if one is jumping at a show, shouldn't that person be advanced enough to approach the jump at a canter? If not, shouldn't they get more advanced in their riding skills before showing?



I've seen people at shows fall off their horse at a corto, simply because the horse jumped around a little and they lost their balance. Some people have a tendency to do way more than they should on a horse. And I hate to say this, but aside from most of the young people that show equitation, most don't know how to ride a horse. <--- just wait, this is gonna get me into a heap of trouble (but you made me say it Cindy - thank you very much).


The area where I board my horses, consists of two miles by one mile, abutting the Florida Turnpike to the east. The entire surrounding area is developed. Which means some traffic during rush hour. Trails here don't exist. The largest farm is 4 Aces consisting of about 20 acres. Trails no longer exist here. Once in a while, you hear about Trainer X, felling off a horse, while riding on the street. And these are trainers that are being flicked off like flys !!!




Even the 2 ft classes in beginner hunter requires jumping from the canter. They may trot the first fence but they canter the rest of the class.



Absolutely correct, they are allowed to approach the FIRST jump at a trot. Most trainers encourage this habit, unless it is a timed event.





And understand I am just saying this as food for thought as I do not agree with making trail horses canter for the reason that I stated before. And I most definitely did not agree with the reasoning presented to require a canter to the jump. The reasoning was that a jump should only be approached in a diagonal gait i.e. trot or canter. I disagree with this and find no justification for necessitating a diagonal gait to approach a jump. But the rule was passed regardless of whether or not the reasoning was correct.


I agree with you completely, there is no rationale for the need of a diagonal gait versus a lateral, just to approach a jump. It's almost like saying "Pasos can't jump, because we gait". Obviously, those that made the comment and agreed, have NEVER JUMPED A PASO.

To me, the most important issue is rider's jumping experience and the horse's knowledge of jump cues.

For decades, you and I have seen things that just don't make any kinda sense in this breed.





I do have a confession, just for you, Cousin Cindy. Okay everyone else, please stop reading (yeah right):

Back in 1976 I purchased a stallion that Ernie Sanz' dad imported from Puerto Rico. He was a handful. But then again, I came from owning an Arabian, so this was no big deal. I took him to his first show at Huck Lyles, in Davie and EAGERLY entered him in every single class I could (sounds familiar anybody?).

When I got to Versatility, I was asked to jump, I thought "gee, I hope this suckerr knows how to jump?" Man, you should have seen me: I approached, attempting a three quarters position in a WESTERN saddle. He jumped prior to my cue and left me sitting out the jump. I felt so embarrassed, :oops: next thing I know, people are applauding and I'm thinking "this is so strange, these people have no clue I just messed up badly".

Then they asked us to back up (are you sitting down?) I never backed this horse up. I bought him only a week or so prior to this show. When I gave him the cue, he reared. I knew these were grounds for dismissal, so I rode to the Stewart and asked to be excused. Later, that day, the Stewart came up to me - it seems he was talking to the Judge after the class and told him, "I would have pinned her first, because the other horses all refused the jump". :confused

Here we are, 30 years later and I'm still confused over that one. :lol:


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[Privatetreaty]

PT I'm in warm Miami Florida!!!


Say what???
Hey, why don't I know you?


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[FineStepFarm]

My daughter is 13 and she has a Paso I hate to say is not that well gaited.
Which is why we decided to school her for versatility. She can walk, trot, corto, largo and has a awesome 3-beat canter. In fact her trot is so diagonal she can do a nice post to it. Her trainer wants her to go in hunter shows because the horse really likes to jump! Also she'll be doing the 4-H hunter classes.
She learned to jump by corto/trotting the first jump, then the horse lands in a canter and now she's doing a 8 jump course at the canter, but it took awhile.
If anyone watched the video: Versatility through the Judges eyes by Carlos Tobon, check out the jumping class.
Wow, it's an eye opener of incorrect form, and how not to jump! I hope I don't offend anyone, I'm sorry.
But then again, this isn't a jumping class its just to prove your horse can jump.
Tammi

[CarolU]

Well you should still jump correctly, in either the Trail class or Versatility...and mostly that means TRAINING for it enough that you know your horse will jump confidently. Remember that saying "throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow."? Well the truth is that if YOU are confident the horse will jump, it will. It if you are worried it won't jump, it'll sense that worry and be afraid of the jump. Period.

You would probably need the speed of the canter to clear a 3' jump. But should be able to jump lower jumps from a corto.

What I HATE seeing is horses that jump without enough rein being given to stretch their necks out, and they bump into the bit and it ends up hurting the horse. They'll learn to hate jumping real quick if this happens often.

Funny how people will spend an hour a day practicing gaits, and NEVER practice jumping before they enter this class. It's like any other class at the show, you need to TRAIN and PRACTICE.

[Cindy]

Just for you Cousin Helen. This is me and my mare Dicha at the Tampa Nationals in 1979 in the trail class. She was 4, I was 13. She was a great jumper and a great horse who taught me a lot.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/43843Dicha_2.jpg

[Pasofinoguy]

This was taken the morning before the show. Getting ready for the class.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i128/resortepiloto/ArticalPic3.jpg

[Privatetreaty]

Perfect jump style, Cousin Cindy.
Thank you for sharing your beautiful photograph.


Thank you too, Adam.


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[PattiB]

You've seen this one before but I just love showing it off.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/pblichmann/Aviso-Jump.jpg
Aviso loved to jump and jumped anything I pointed him at.

[LynnG]

The way the Paso Trail class is set up now by rules....these gaits are required: walk, corto, largo, canter. It can be between obstacles, and have seen the canter called for after the last obstacle, and more often these days I don't see a jump included. The show management usually develops and posts the course pattern. I'd prefer the canter not be mandatory, as many trail Paso Finos do not canter on the trail or are taught to canter with a rider. So having a canter in there makes for a smaller class of exhibitors, same with the jump. Many won't enter if a jump is included. Face it most trail rides, if you have to cross something it will be a log or downed tree. If tall enough, usually you can ride around it on an actual trail.

[PasoPerson38]

Helen did you get my PM??

[Cindy]

The canter is not required. It is listed in the list of qualitfying gaits but does not need to be used. Most regional trail classes do not use the jump or the canter but they will be called for at Nationals.

[Pinto Paso]

One more Paso Fino jumping
http://www.pintopaso.com/pandorajumpemail.jpg

[SandyMM]

I took my first riding lessons from an elderly cavalry officer... (very elderly but a great instructor.) In addition to jumping at a trot (then at a canter), I also had to jump bareback and learn the (intentional ;-) ) 'emergency dismount'.

But once I started riding Pasos, all my 'real life' jumps out on the trail have been from a corto.

[LynnG]

The "canter or lope" is listed as one of the "qualifying" gaits for the trail class in the rulebook, and thus needs to be included in the trail class somewhere. Qualifying gaits listed are: Flat walk, corto, largo, canter/lope. It has been included in the course work I've seen the last few years.

Personally I think the canter should be taken out unless there is a jump included, and at that even still.... on any actual trail ride I'm on... I let them jump from a corto.

Someone want to rewrite the rule to have it as "optional" gait in the case of a jump as an obstacle.

[PattiB]

We didn't have to jump bareback in college but we did have to jump without stirrups and no hands :D
If you plan on coming to Springfield, MO show you will have to canter on both leads in trail, the right lead is at a countercanter.

[PasoPerson38]

Lynn I agree totally with you...
It should not be included in the class requirments and it should be Optional if there is a jump. Infact I ride a mare that would be GREAT for trail class and I was considering putting her in it, but not anymore....because of the canter requirment. I thought that was the point of PASOS...Why canter when you can LARGO 8-)

[Cindy]

Lynn, the shows that I have judged in the last few years did not require a canter or lope in the class and did not have jumps. I will take it to the rules clarification committee if you like. I remember when the rule was passed that it was to be optional and that the rational was because a horse should jump from the canter, not a lateral gait. It was voted to be listed in the qualifying gaits so that it could be used, not because it had to be called for. Without it being listed as a qualifying gait, it could not be called for in the class. Now it can but my understanding has been that it was not necessary for it to be called for. Patti, what is your understanding of the rule?

[PattiB]

I agree with Cindy. It is not required to use all the qualifying gaits in Trail. Canter is not usually called for in Trail at most Regional shows.

[Cindy]

Thanks Patti. I just sent out an e-mail to the clarification committee to be sure but that was my understanding.

[cowboy ed]

cindy, that has always been my understanding of it too. the gaits are listed so that they can be asked for, but are not necessarily required.

in versatility, i can certainly understand the judges asking for the canter. i would think the judges would like to see that the horse can work in a full range of gaits, and do the transitions calmly and on command.

[CarolU]

Cindy, it probably should go to the rules committee for clarification since it is listed in the rule book under Qualifying Gaits. It doesn't say it is optional and is listed just like the required gaits are.

[Cindy]

Ed, in Versatility the canter must be asked for because it is in the class procedure. But it is not in trail. It is only listed as a qualifying gait.

Carol, I believe we will address this as a rules change as the chair of the rules committee suggested we do so. My committee will work on making the rule more clear.

[LynnG]

Fred Moretti has been the steward at the shows I have judged the past few years and said the canter/lope was required, and we had to work it into the Trail class routine somewhere.

Silly enough, I've seen it put in with like 30' feet between obstacles, and then after the last obstacle before exiting the ring. It really is not a success to have it included, as it excludes some exhibitors from entering the class.

Unless something has changed in the last year, that is my understanding of the rule according to what the steward has told me, and we had discussed it also AS being required vs optional.

Rules clarification vs submitting a rule change to remove it or list as optional in case of a jump.

[Cindy]

Fred is on the rules clarification committee so was one of the ones who received my e-mail. I have not yet heard back from him. I have gotten one response so far and that was that the canter is optional. Will keep you posted on the rest.

[Privatetreaty]

Helen did you get my PM??

Yes, thank you. I just sent you a reply.

Sorry for the delay. I've been preoccupied with Sandy's "midnight run" in the General Chit Chat. :roll:

See ya real soon.


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[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Helen did you get my PM??

Yes, thank you. I just sent you a reply.

Sorry for the delay. I've been preoccupied with Sandy's "midnight run" in the General Chit Chat. :roll:

See ya real soon.


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You better stop at my place too Cousin Helen, I am down the road from Pasoperson38 STABLES.........

[Privatetreaty]

I took my first riding lessons from an elderly cavalry officer... (very elderly but a great instructor.) In addition to jumping at a trot (then at a canter), I also had to jump bareback and learn the (intentional ;-) ) 'emergency dismount'.




This sounds way too familar. Was his name General Francisco Cosio?


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[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Wow... Helen, Mr. Cosio was a mentor for many of us down here.....

I think for Pat Figueroa too???? or I am way wrong.?

[motorgypsy]

In mounted posse training we had to jump from a "trot" which for us was of course gait. Interesting for us as we'd never tried it before but our guys had no problems doing it other than their usual "over jumping thing".

[Privatetreaty]

Wow... Helen, Mr. Cosio was a mentor for many of us down here.....

I think for Pat Figueroa too???? or I am way wrong.?


Pat kept her Arabian mare at that barn, however I personally never saw her take a lesson with Cosio. I do remember her sister, Margaret Fahringer at the barn, schooling her on the Arab. I think she was a Robert Mannix understudy (Saddlebreds), who was one of the first AHSA judges, once PFOBA shows were sanctioned.


Cosio's son was my father's attorney and that's how we met him. He was a really tough cookie. I never fell off a horse more in my entire life, than the time I took lessons with him. And once I'd fall, he would scream at me at the top of his lungs.


It's funny how Pasos were not even a thought back in 1971 and some of us ended up in them. Cosio's understudies include: Phyllis Gaudreau, Alex Amador and Susan Sierra (Alberto's former wife).

When Cosio left the barn, it was Alex that schooled me, when we turned to a hunter/jumper trainer. I was always very grateful to her. Today, she helps everyone she can, she hasn't changed a bit.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Phyllis already have a Paso back then?
I made the switch sometime in the mid 1970's.
I have no idea when Alex and Susan switched, because we lost track of each other.


BTW, I heard from Sandy via PM. She was referring to someone else, not Cosio.



I'd also like to say, that I am very grateful to Pat for being my Paso teacher and mentor. She'd always beat the pants off me, when we competed in Equitation.

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[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Yes Helen, Phyllis back then was stableling her Pasos at Pandarosa Farms later also known as ANNIES FARM.

Cosio, GREAT MASTER!!!!!!!!! rest in peace