article on horses who flip over - hereditary trait

[motorgypsy]

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=7675

Interesting study on horses who use flipping over to avoid fearful or undesirable situations.

[ErinC]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm , need a membership!
let me know if you have one ,,,, I want to know more on the cribbing article!

[Red Ryder]

In certain lines, this tendency does seem highly heritable. And it is not just the ordinary rearing that is provoked by mishandling, but rather, as you say, a tendency from the start to express fear or resistance by just popping up to avoid ordinary procedures. We have seen these "aerially inclined" and "overreacting" lines in breeds other than Quarter Horses, too. For example, I can think of some Thoroughbred and Arabian families, and even ponies, with a tendency for rearing and flipping over. Just like with your foal, the behavior is often present at an early age, so it is not likely just the result of being mishandled.

I work with a family of four full-sibling Shetland-type ponies--three colts and one filly. The mare's previous offspring by a different stallion did not have this tendency, and her last four foals, all with the same stallion, do show the behavior.

Their tendency to rear to avoid ordinary procedures and to jump to escape pressure was evident from the first time they were handled. They were handled just like every other foal in that project, so it certainly seemed that while other foals might try to move away from pressure, these guys just popped up, and even over backward. Like deer, they could jump from a standstill, bounding out of enclosures twice their height. These avoidance maneuvers didn't quickly diminish as we gentled them as most others did, such as turning butt, striking, or kicking we see in young foals.

Over the years, I've heard and seen a lot of punishment-type techniques to "cure" rearing. Some are pretty violent and dangerous, and I personally have not seen a punishment method that I could recommend as safe and effective, or that I would be willing to try myself. It would be good to hear from readers along these lines.

I can tell you what we have found useful to eliminate rearing in the hands-on situations we are most experienced with. The four rearing ponies, for example, are totally in our care and on a behavior research program. So, we can and have decided to simply avoid provoking the rearing when they are young.

We know that rearing is self-reinforcing; in other words, it usually leads to successful avoidance of the procedure or restraint. If you just keep trying, the animal gets rewarded over and over for rearing, and a great principal of behavior modification is to peacefully stop the avoidance cycle. This is easier said than done, and requires that you and the entire team agree and develop a bag of tricks.

In the case of rearing and flipping or jumping, we have found that it is clearly the restraint itself, or the "cornering," that pushes the rearing or jumping button. At least in the few individuals I have personally worked with, it seemed that they were not nearly as averse to the procedure itself as to the restraint.

For example, for lifting their feet or for an injection or blood draw, we work without a halter or lead in a small paddock. We use positive reinforcement to reward tolerance of the procedure, or to distract slightly from the procedure. Without restraint these animals have cooperated nicely.

I realize that a domestic horse can't go on forever without restraint, but we have the impression that avoiding the restraint and the rearing when they are young is helpful as they mature. The 2- and 3- year-old colts seem to be maturing out of the rearing tendency.

In the meantime, we have avoided battles, and every necessary procedure has been accomplished peacefully within a reasonable time. Sometimes it goes even faster because we don't have to halter them, just walk up to them and begin working.

We have not yet tried to tie them; since they stand for anything, we haven't needed to go there. But the two older colts might soon be ready to test that. I realize this is totally impractical for your race training situation, but since we can go slowly, we have. And it certainly has worked nicely.

Another situation in which we are faced with rearing is in breeding stallions, either when starting novice breeders or when correcting specific breeding behavior problems. In those situations, the available history might not be complete, so we are not sure whether the horse is one of those special "aerially inclined" individuals or whether he is just one of the victims in which injudicious discipline at the head has created the problem.

Careful evaluation of thousands of hours of stallion handling has left me with the impression that most rearing in the breeding situation is inadvertently provoked by the handler jerking at the head restraint. Then it becomes a vicious cycle. As the handler begins to anticipate rearing, he sometimes (inadvertently) prompts the horse to rear by cranking up the restraint or jerking.

So, when we are faced with a rearing stallion, our first tack is to try backing off on the restraint at the head, at least temporarily. If we had been using a chain shank over the nose or under the chin, or over the tongue like a bit, we try with a cotton shank over the nose or just attached to the lower ring of the halter. We make sure the halter is a well-fitted, sturdy breeding halter. We then try to make sure there is no jerking or pulling at the head. The rearing usually subsides to a safe, workable level, then once the stallion learns the routine, the rearing and other undesirable behaviors "evaporate."

When they don't, we go to Plan B, which is to creatively reorganize the situation or protocol to avoid the rearing.

For example, we are working now with two stallions that tend to rear during the washing of the ***** when in the breeding shed with the mare. It's a pretty common scenario. It seems to be overenthusiasm or frustration because of the necessary delay. So, we either do the wash before the mare is brought into the breeding area, or we wash the stallion outside the breeding shed, or even in the stall if they are ready there.

For me, the starting gate situation is a greater challenge. To avoid the flipping you have to acclimate the animal so well to the situation that fear doesn't push the button for rearing and flipping.

The starting gate situation is not easy to model. You can practice all you want, but the real event is so much more complex and potentially fear-inducing that it's really not the same. Again, maybe readers have useful ideas they could share. Finally, but very importantly, it would be inadvisable to introduce tying to a horse until this type of rearing problem is well-resolved.

[CarolU]

Hollis, without looking at the article, I'm assuming your post is a quote from it?

It is interesting because I have never heard of this behavior being common in Paso Finos at all, in ANY line, even in lines with bad reputations (which of course, we won't mention).

I fully agree with heriditory traits - both good and bad. Stef mentioned it, but I'll bring it up again, I've never seen ANY breed as bad about pawing as Paso Finos. I'm not sure if it runs in certain lines, that might be an interesting study. But I do know that the PFs I've been around paw more then other breeds I've owned (QH's, Arabs, Paints, Appy's, and grades). Which I might add, for those who think the Spanish Walk is NOT a natural movement, they should think again. It most certainly IS, and I think it comes from the Andalusian ancestors.

But, back to rearing and flipping over, I can certainly see where some horses are much more head sensitive then others. It is most probable that this is an inherited trait.

[Red Ryder]

Entire article

[Jasfino]

When I was in search of my first paso.. I ran into one that had this bad habit. The seller was very forthright in telling me that the horse was unpredictable and dangerous. From what I gathered, the horse would throw a temper tamtrum and would rear and flip over backwards. :-?

[pasoglide]

When I went to get my colt he was 14 months old and had never been handled never had a halter on . When I went to try to get him in the trailer he would rear up and just throw himself on the ground I would just laugh at him . He hasn't done it since but I haven't done any major training yet , he is now three . If I start him out wrong will I bring out rearing thing again and have him messed up ?

[CarolU]

Thank you Hollis.

Pasoglide, I've seen several babies throw the same type of temper tantrum you describe. None of them turned into adults that reared. What I have found with training is that if you have very soft hands with an instant release you should be able to train them without them coming up in front. Also if they seem to be starting to, it is because they are confused and if I start that part of the lesson over, perhaps ask a different way, I can avoid 'teaching' them to rear.

I was reared over on when I was 14. I had whipped the horse over the head, causing the accident myself.

Bruiser has a temper. He is being tied in the barn on a short rope to a steel wall. He can just get over his temper NOW while he is still small.

[motorgypsy]

Thanks Hollis!

This trait appears to manifest itself with the slightest restraint on the head. Our 3 year old filly is very resistant to head pressure so we use wiggly fingers not touching her to teach her to move away from pressure rather than pressure on the halter. Little by little she is becoming less resistant.

My good friend who brokers horses had a paso fino mare that was like this. She reared and would have flipped if Kyle hadn't dropped her sideways using the lead he was holding while I was in the saddle. I calmed her and got right back on and she was fine but she's another that was very dangerous. Also black in color I might add and wonderfully gaited. I would not have bought her though because she didn't "choose me". I think with this type of horse in particular that is essential.

[Carol Nelson]

I have a 19 year old gray mare that will do that if ridden in a bit. I had sold her to a young man from Santo Domingo whose father had trained Pasos. He said she had probably been started too young with too harsh a bit. We did learn something about her when we had her teeth floated...her tongue had nearly been severed as a young horse...there were scars evident.
She can be ridden in a sidepull bareback, but we just simply chose to use her as a broodmare...she produces beautiful smart babies.
Which brings me to a point, these Pasos are so smart and so willing, that it doesn't take manhandling to get them to understand what you're wanting from them. What a shame that so many are mistreated and need to be rehabilitated. :-?

[Pinto Paso]

Pawing - I will say it again LOL.. This new baby is approaching people and eating from our hands.. Whe will paw "just like the grown ups" while eating OR if she does not get what she wants, when she wants it...

I believe that there are many inheritable traits that are very subtle. Jerry (hubby) and I talk about this often - especially now that we are seeing 4th generation offspring around here. It is very noticable when you see a young horse do something from the sire's side, because of our stallions housing (stallion barn and turn outs away from mares/foals) we know that it can not possibly be a learned trait.

Sensativity could be inheritable, and in specific areas (head, poll) seems likely - It would be interesting if more than documented action/reaction is eventually done (scans neuro testing etc) looking for any genetic reason.

We have seen sensativity to touch (all over) in a couple of lines of Paso Finos, not to a degree of danger or problems handling but it is appearant that the horse is sensative to brushing or light touch etc. We take these things into consideration when saddling, haltering etc. to ensure the horse is comfortable.

[Privatetreaty]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmm , need a membership!
let me know if you have one ,,,, I want to know more on the cribbing article!


To sign up for a "membership" is not big deal, Erin.
They just ask ya for some info.
It's worth it - they have some very interesting articles.
go for it babe 8-)


.

[CarolU]

While I agree with you Carol totally about Paso Finos being so very smart and sensitive that harsh gear is totally unnecessary, I must interject that this same thing happens in other breeds. I think it comes with the mentality that "domination" is the way to train a horse. It leads people the world over to move on to harsher gear to 'control' the horse whenever there is a problem. This works with most horses, but there are those who take the opposite direction and wont' submit and fight instead.
As Nancy found, going softer and working with less pressure takes the pain and the fight away from the horse.

I'm not sure how many here have heard the story behind Magic, the black mare that Parelli demos on. She was delivered to him hogtied and blindfolded to PROVE that natural training would not work. She was another horse who would flip over backwards with any head pressure, and had been through a dozen trainers who had tried everything to dominate her. Look at her now, doing reining and dressage manuvers with NO headgear at all.

[Privatetreaty]

oh great, I forgot my password :duh
this must be airhead week



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[CarolU]

Stef, you are so very right there...I have two horses that I have to brush with a shoeshine brush in the summer. They flinch with even the softest horse brush I've found. I also have one that won't tolerate a fly mask and bobs her head whenever I put one on her (I don't anymore, use fly whipe daily instead). This same horse won't tolerate a neoprene grippy girth.

[motorgypsy]

Regarding pawing - Sultan and our "feral paso aka Florida Cracker" are now banned from the area between the stalls because they dug to "China" in two places and dug up the hot wire. They should all be miners or plumbers they are so good at digging!!

[CarolU]

Funny. We caled Rosie, Rosie the Rototiller because she churns the earth. I should say that Bruiser also paws (digs) while he eats and he's Peruvian Paso.

[Red Ryder]

A relatively new procedure to remedy cribbing in horses is performed by some equine practitioners. Kate Christensen, DVM, with Neuse River Veterinary Hospital in Wendell, N.C., practices the innovative procedure, which is the insertion of "cribbing rings" into the horse's gums to discourage cribbing. The new procedure is much less invasive than a myectomy (surgically removing part of the muscle that controls movement of the throat) and she says the success rate is about 80% compared to the surgery's 60%. Other devices and remedies such as anti-cribbing collars, electric shock collars, painting fences with strong-tasting concoctions, and even giving horses anti-depressants have had less-than-optimum results.


DONNA CAMPBELL SMITH

When a horse with cribbing rings attempts to crib, the rings put pressure on the gums, which is uncomfortable. The rings generally stay in the horse's gums for three to six weeks.

Christensen says she's been performing the procedure about eight months with good success. The operation is simple: small rings, like those put in a pig's nose to prevent rooting, are inserted into the horse's gums between the upper incisors. The horse is sedated and twitched, the rings clamped in with ring pliers. It takes about 10 minutes once the horse is tranquilized.


Christensen says there are no side effects to the gums or teeth. The rings do not interfere with eating or with wearing a bit. The horse will not crib as long as the rings stay in, but the down side is the rings sometimes come out in three to six weeks. If the rings come out there is no problem with repeating the procedure.


"It works best with show horses that are kept inside," Christensen said. "Pastured horses pull them out grazing."


How it works is also simple. When the horse attempts to crib, the rings put pressure on the gums, which is uncomfortable. Most horses stop trying to crib soon after the rings are put in. Christensen says that some veterinarians claim they have had horses stop cribbing all together even after the rings are removed. Christensen has not found this to be true in her experience. "This procedure has been around about two years. It is one of those things we (veterinarians) learn and pass on to each other."


Cribbing is a habit that at the very least is annoying and destructive, and in many cases it can be harmful to the horse's health. Susan Jacobi, a horse owner in Wake Forest, N.C., has a Quarter Horse mare, "Molly," who is a cribber. When Christensen told her about the procedure, Jacobi decided it was worth a try. She said Molly quit cribbing after just a couple of attempts. Even when Molly, a pastured horse, lost her rings after about eight weeks, it was some time before she began to crib again. When Molly resumed cribbing, Jacobi had the rings replaced. She has been very pleased with the results and has not observed any adverse reaction or affects from it.


Cribbing rings are not a cure, but another option for controlling the vice of cribbing.

[Pinto Paso]

I would not want to sedate my horse continuously every 3 - 6 weeks . Nor do I see how it is more effective than the miracle collar if the horse will go back to it after the rings fall out... I think it makes the owner feel better because they do not see the rings but see the collar... JMO

[CarolU]

OUCH...that article had me cringing Hollis. :shock:

Poor horses. I'm so glad none of mine crib.

[Red Ryder]

I can tell you from experience with ringing hogs, the only reason they work is "they hurt" I'd much rather use the collar myself.