Snaffle Discussion

[Candice Burger]

I've been mulling this over for a while and would like some input.

The differences between a loose ring snaffle and one that is fixed.
The differences between a typical weight and the newer, heavier ones.
The difference between a two-piece vs. three-piece snaffle.
Also does anyone have experience with brass mouthed snaffles?

My experience is limited to the traditional full cheek, D-ring snaffles and using a few that were three piece with toggles or rollers. Seems the fad these days is snaffle with loose rings, one that is heavy, or the three-piece design.

Can anyone give me some real-life comparisons and experience?

[pnalley]

Candice,
I have a D ring snaffle with a copper mounthpiece. The copper does seem to help create saliva which we know is good.

I'm afraid of the loose ring snaffles due to pinching at the corners of the mouth.

I've used a mullen mouth, a hollow mouth and one with keys. All those had an eggbutt. Never used a three pice or one with a roller.

[Heidi]

I have a three-piece, loose-ring snaffle that I like.
I do notice a difference between the 2-piece and 3-piece mouthpieces. The traditional two piece has a tendency to make a pointy 'steeple' shape and it can poke the horse in the roof of the mouth. This type of bit can also have a nut-cracker affect on the lower jawbone. The 3-piece bit cannot form a steeple to poke or make a nut-cracker affect on the lower jaw bones.
I think it places more pressure evenly over the mouth (tongue, lip-corners and bars) while the 2-piece seems to work mostly on the lip-corners and bars.

[reuben T]

a snaffle, the most commen starting bit, usually the only kind ever used for driving.


a 2 metal bit creates electrolisis with saliva, bad or good? I've heard opinions on both sides. Richard Shrake thinks solid copper is not good but a little copper inlay in mild steel (sweet iron) is good.

Before being bitucated (educated in bit's) some people think any jointed bit is a snaffle, not true, snaffle is always a direct rein to mouth bit, all bit's with leverage are not snaffles, wether jointed or not.

Aside from the diemeter, which makes them more or less severe, I think the style of snaffle makes very little difference. I use a couple of old rusty loose ring snaffles that I picked up at an antique store, probably from an old work/driving harness. They're worn enough, had a lot of use back in horse/mule days. (which lasted longer round here in the mountains than in more accessable areas, I saw an old feller plowing with his mule soon after we moved here 20 years ago.) I think the crack between ring and bit is small enough and the lips stiff enough it dosn't pinch, but I'll watch it.

[Pinto Paso]

The snaffle bit has evolved A LOT since the two piece sharp angle driving snaffle. many now are based on the conformation of the horse's mouth as well as the beginning of headsets. rein placement and pressures are taken into consideration.

I dont use a snaffle bit very often - there are many other bits that I find more effective but they do have their place and purpose.

[cowboy ed]

candice, i use a 2 piece brass snaffle for my andalusian stallion. it is curved at the joint, so as to avoid any pinching. he is very happy with it. i believe it is a klaus balkenhold.

i mostly use the myler comfort snaffle for the second stage of training young horses. it is a true, direct pull snaffle, more of a D ring type, but with the barrel over the joint for comfort. it also has the copper inlays. probably my favorite, and the horses like it too. it is very good for lateral flexion/one rein work.

[ErinC]

Ed not to get off topic
but what do you use for the first stage?
i mostly use the myler comfort snaffle for the second stage of training young horses

[Pam M]

I'm not a bit expert but there must be a big difference in the 2 piece and 3 piece - my gelding will have bucking fits and throw you if you put a 2 piece in his mouth and put ANY pressure on it. Put a 3 piece on him and he's mild mannered, calm and will even let beginners yank him around.

[CarolU]

I also use Myler comfort snaffles. I quit usuing the two piece snaffle when I actually looked at the mechanics of the bit and where it applied pressure to the horse. It's a popular bit here and I find it creates a lot of gait problems, since horses move their heads out and down to relieve the pressure, putting the weight forward. I think collection can be achieved on them, but it takes time and education to do it correctly.

I read an article at Horsecity where they put pressure sensors in the mouth of horses and put them on a treadmill and measured pressure in different areas. The most comfortable bit was a french link, and the second was the Myler comfort snaffle.

The difference in a loose ring and a fixed ring, is similar to the difference in light contact and full contact in a Colombian spade. With a loose ring the horse will learn to feel the lift of the rein, prior to engagement of that rein, where with the fixed ring, they won't. I might add this is why people like mecate reins with slobber straps, so that the horse feels the change in weight with both intent to use, and he gets an instant release when dropped.

I personally don't care for the mecate/slobber strap arrangement. I find it is very heavy on our little horses. I think your normal Paso Fino reins with clip and tie into the clip provide ample weight and an instant release without the heavy weight. This also negates the need for a loose ring. If you remember that most people come to mecate reins from thin and light leather reins that are stiff where they attach to the bit with latigos and where there isn't much chance for a soft feel, the mecates are a big improvement. I didn't find them an improvement over what I was already using.

The thicker the port where it comes across the jaws is a more humane bit while the narrower port is more cruel. This is again similar to the Colombian spade...and why I'd like to see Myler's new bit.

I've never tried the heavier bits, but I do have experience with copper rollers and they are very nice with mouthy horses that want to play with their bit. They work similarly to a pacifier.

[Pinto Paso]

Pam, your horse may be responding to the pressure applied to the bars of his mouth, his tongue or his palate with the 2 piece snaffle - I bet would be the palate if it is with all riders as they are usually more tolerant of pressure on the bars and tongue but if they have a low or sensitive palate they can really have a fit.

[Candice Burger]

Seems there is some misunderstanding too about snaffles (not here but I get around the net... ;-) ). Snaffles are designed for one rein lateral work and not for pulling straight back. Seems lots of folks use the two-rein, direct pull back for control to stop the horse, thus the nutcracker effect.

I love snaffles and used them allot for horses that came in uneven and had been over flexed with the jaquima causing abuse issues when using the jaquima. The horses were relieved not to work laterally with the jaquima and took to the snaffle very well. I generally used the traditional snaffle and liked the full cheek for the signal it gave to the opposite side of the direct rein as support. Allot of horses were evened up with lateral work on a snaffle.

I had beautifully built three piece snaffles, one with keys/toggles and one with copper rollers. Back then there were no such thing as copper inlays. Some horses needed more tongue contact and enjoyed the toggles or rollers--it depended on how much oral stimulation they wanted.

I also used a narrow mullen mouthed bradoon for a few horses that had learned to brace with a bit. Within a few days, they'd get off the bradoon and I'd go to a regular snaffle. Never used it for riding, only for some ground work.

I've been reading about these heavier, loose ring snaffles, but have yet to read/hear why they are so great. Allot of faddish jargon is used but nothing concrete is ever said about why go to such a design. The only advantage I've considered is one will be "relatively" milder than the other, but if not careful some signal will be lost and on very ignorant horses, sometimes the direct, firm rein is the best signal for them to learn first. I may have to buy one to see for myself.

As far as the purpose and use of the snaffle for lateral work, I think the difference is subtle. Just like using a two piece vs. three piece. For horses with no issue the subtleties are lost but for those that reguire stimulation on the mouth, less pressure on the bar, more distribution of the signal, it can make a big difference. So it seems less to be about the major role of the snaffle and more about finding one the horse accepts and therefore be receptive to the cues. I've generally used whatever snaffle about the same when working the horse once I find the one he likes.

Now I saw some brass snaffles at a farm I visited in TX last year. Very interesting and the trainer used them extensively training his pasos. The horses I tried all wore a snaffle, maybe one had a curb and they seemed to like the bit. So I was wondering if the brass was more acceptable to horses.

[Terry Wallace]

Snaffles work best for horses who work with a level topline, or even with their head below topline, and for lateral work...this is why they are the bit of choice in reining horses. They work with a level topline or head below level. This is also why you see snaffle bits with no curb straps a lot of the time....

I have used them for years & years on QH the occasional Appaloosa and Paints. All the stock horses I ever started carried a full cheek snaffle to start out with. Pinching never seemed to be any problem in the "level topline" horse... but then..that is ALL they have on their face besides a bridle holding it, and one set of reins. Snaffles are used a lot on racehorses...as they are not asked to do much more than "go forward" and run INTO the bit. Lots of those horses have their tongues tied down to keep them from getting it over the mouthpiece. Some have a "Y" strap over their nose that goes to each side of the bit to keep it positioned...

I of course had snaffle bits when I started in Paso Finos. I did...at first use a full cheek snaffle as a "carry bit" while the horse was still in barbada, bosal and double reins. I did have trouble with snaffles pinching on horses who need to have a higher head carriage. I no longer use the full cheek snaffle on Paso Finos....another reason is because when you have barbada, bosal and double reins AND a bit...its just "too much gear" and you get interference with those full cheeks against both barbada & bosal.

I now have comfort-mouth kimberwickes (Myler) just as Ed describes, but with a Kibmerwicke set up (side ring) so I have slots for two sets of reins, and just a wee bit of leverage off the set up. The new-designed shaped mouth with a barrel really works well for me. I STILL do use a plain Kimberwicke curb mouth to start many horses and then move them too the comfort Kimber after they just "carry" the curb mouth Kimber for a while, and I have atached one set of reins to that Kimber and used that set of reins "sparingly"... (I don't ever just let reins hang lose though...I always hold them, just don't use that rein much in the beginning of bitting).

Reuben has described what I was always taught also..and that is..any bit with a snaffle (broken) mouthpiece that has ANY amount of shank..IS a curb, with curb action, and NOT a snaffle..snaffles work off direct lateral pull as Candice describes.

One thing I have to say...is that I have the best luck with Kimberwicke bits
(low port curb mouthpiece) when starting bitting. They are gentle and work well. I have also taken some "hard case" horses that came to me having been ridden in cathedral or high port correction bits, put them back into a Kimberwicke and and had them act & respond much, much better with a lot LESS bit. I do think a lot of folks try to correct problems with the "next biggest, harsher" bit when they are looking for quick results. In my experience, a lot of times all that does, is get you a very apprehensive horse that does not like to be ridden, and is expecting to get pulled on hard for any mis-action, and never ever "relaxes". For me, less is more and being KIND will get better results in the long run.
JMO

[TrueStepPaso]

Snaffles are designed for one rein lateral work and not for pulling straight back.

Right.
I think snaffles are essential tools in working on a higher level of communication....french link, single joint, comfort, thick, thin, whatever.....but I do think every horse should be able to execute their everyday riding manuevers in some sort of direct pull mouthpiece. NOT a leverage bit.....every....single....time....you ride. Direct pull bits give equal pressure from your hands to the horse's mouth, while all leverage bits (even the myler comfort snaffle with "hooks") equal at least THREE times the pressure from your hands to the horse's mouth.

The level of thickness/thinness should ONLY be measured by the depth of the horse's palate, and if the horse looks like he's smiling after you put the bit in. A bit should be COMFORTABLE. No one or two wrinkles, or any of that crap.....the bit is already "engaged" by that point, so keep it just at the corner of the lips.

The D-rings are to keep the bit from being pulled through the horse's mouth, as are the full cheek (that's why alot of the "famous" trainers recommend the full cheek, so some yahoo idiot doesn't pull the bit through their green horse's mouth and get into a wreck). Aside from the full cheek, I think EVERY snaffle should have a leather tied chin strap...their SOLE purpose is to keep the bit from being yanked through the mouth. Like this....https://shop.parellisecure.com/images/country_bridle.jpg

I feel that everyone should "fine tune" with a mild snaffle, here and there throughout the horse's riding career, to get your horse soft. I love feeling my horses get really light through a mild snaffle or two.

Oh, and again, I'll say that single jointed snaffles NO NOT have a nut cracker affect on the horse's mouth :roll: .....unless your standing directly below the horse, pulling with BOTH hands.

[Terry Wallace]

Oh, and again, I'll say that single jointed snaffles NO NOT have a nut cracker affect on the horse's mouth

yeah..right and thats why lots of those dressage horses have their mouths tied shut with cavesons & nosebands right????

Just don't agree with you there TrueStep...
Nor do I think leverage bits are bad...its the HANDS that are bad..the HANDS woman! ;-)

Nor do I think horses can only be "fine tuned" with snaffle bits....! ;-)

Not meant as argument...just stating my experience of training & training & training..... :D

[Pinto Paso]

I wonder how many riders/owners know the "mechanics" of the bit(s) they choose (how/why it makes the horse do what it does)?

How many know WHAT bit to choose to correct/resolve or improve a specific issue with their horse.

How many ride the horse with the bit it came with, or just put a bit in the mouth and luckily the horse does not react adversly?

How many know when to change a bit?

How many know when NOT to change a bit?

How many know if the horse is on the bit, over the bit, behind the bit?


Not just snaffle bits but any bit

[Pinto Paso]

A snaffle is not categorized by a jointed bit mouthpiece, as is often thought. A bit is a snaffle because it creates direct pressure leverage on the mouth. Therefore, a single- or double-jointed mouthpiece, though the most common designs for snaffle bits, does not make a bit a snaffle. A mullen mouth (a solid, slightly curved bar) or a bar bit is also a snaffle.

The Mouthpiece (article)

The mouthpiece is the more important part of a snaffle, as it controls the severity of the bit. Thinner mouthpieces are more severe, as are those that are rougher.

Jointed mouthpiece: applies pressure to the tongue, lips, and bars with a "nutcracker" action. This is the most common mouthpiece found on a snaffle.

Mullen mouth: made of hard rubber or a half-moon of metal, it places even pressure on the mouthpiece, lips, and bars. It is a very mild mouthpiece.

French mouth: a double-jointed mouthpiece with a bone-shaped link in the middle. It reduces the nutcracker action and encourages the horse to relax. Very mild.

Dr. Bristol: a double-jointed mouthpiece with a flat rectangular link in the middle. Applies pressure similarly to the French link, although slightly more severe, because the link in the middle is angled to put the thin edge against the tongue, lips, and bar, creating a pressure point.

Slow twist: a single-jointed mouthpiece with a slight twist in it. Stronger and more severe.

Corkscrew: Many small edges amplifies the pressure on the mouth. Severe.

Single- and Double-twisted wire: two of the most severe mouthpieces, as they are not only thin, but they also have a "nutcracker" action from the single joint and the mouthpiece concentrates pressure due to its severe twisting.

Roller mouthpieces: tend to make a horse relax their mouth and activate the tongue, encouraging salivation and acceptance of the bit. Also create a distraction for tense or nervous horses.

Hollow mouth: usually single-jointed with a thick, hollow mouthpiece which spreads out the pressure and makes the bit less severe. May not fit comfortably in some horses' mouths if they are a little small.

[Cindy]

I think snaffles are essential tools in working on a higher level of communication

I guess that may be a solid theory if one was using bits alone to train the horse. I train with the jaquima so don't need the snaffle to accomplish this task. I do start all my horses in a broken mouth bit but it has shanks so is not a snaffle. I also use the broken mouth bit a lot when retraining a horse to the bit that has not been properly bitted. But I have no need for a snaffle bit in my training. Have not used one for20 years or so.



Oh, and again, I'll say that single jointed snaffles NO NOT have a nut cracker affect on the horse's mouth .....unless your standing directly below the horse, pulling with BOTH hands.
_________________


I have seen you say this before. Since you said it again, I will add for discussion. A Paso Fino with correct conformation and a collected headset would put the head in such a position that you WOULD be basically pulling as if from straight down as the head would be elevated with the nose tucked so that the rein would be more or less perpendicular to the horses face, would it not? Or are you meaning something different? Don't really care much one way or the other. Just trying to understand what you are saying and figure out if it makes sense or not. :D Now a more QH type built horse would carry its head differently because of the different conformation so I can see how what you are saying would pertain to that type of build and head carriage.

[britzlove]

Since I seem to have trouble with these topics first let me say....from Nietzche "There are no facts, only interpretations.."

I'm sure Candice you do run into much about the snaffle on the net. Lots of people out there of so many different persuasions.

Hunters ride with contact, many snaffles, have done this successfully for years...no need to stop. It works for them. They ride with contact and to carefully negotiate fences in accurate timing...it works. They fine tune it with types of snaffles and even a few fixed mouthpieces. Some even use a bridoon. I still believe there are some incredible horsemen and women in this sport. Bad hands are frowned upon, and good hands will literally pay the check. What I'm saying is...the foundation training for using the snaffle in that scenario is certainly built. They want the horse on the bit, generally.

Western pleasure riders also use the snaffle. It is common to start them in a snaffle, they want them to "pack" the bit, take hold of it not just let it sit in mouth...but they ride from decreasing contact until the horse packs the bit around on a light rein, only feather contact to signal turn. Stopping as in most western sports in my experience is done in the seat not the mouth. The snaffle in this scenario is a responsive turning, positioning tool. Not to say that there aren't a plethora of really bad trainers out there that don't really know the correct way to get this done and do countless other crazy things to get results...but I'm just telling you in theory, it's a transition for them.

I use snaffles for my horses, except the paso finos. I actually have no idea how to get them bitted...something I hope to learn. The head's up requirement I have no idea how to figure out why required...oh shoot before I go down another long direction I'll tell you how I use snaffles.

All my horses are doing ALOT of stuff before they ever get a bit. My horses will work in a natural self carriage, framed for their particular body type, head set. My progression: halter, big bosal, smaller bosal, snaffle, finish bit (best term I can think of because I have used and will continue to use many different ones depending on the horse...)
Depending on what you want to do, I don't know that many horses ever need a bit. I have ridden and trained bunches that don't. This is why I can see the position of many that a jaquima is enough for many pasos.

When I have my next serious bridle horse...I'll progress them to a bit. I'll be needing them very hairs responsive. I know it's confusing a little, but with the proper foundation training (oh, btw, bridle horses are years in the making not achievable in months I don't care who says so), a good finish bit fit to the horse is the most responsive tool. The finesse only comes with alot of time and training.

I have several snaffles too. The fatter the mouthpiece in my opinion the harder the signal. So yes, I use a thin, loose ring snaffle, alot. Well, not that I've been training anything but paso finos for two years except Bailey, but I used to. Bailey bless her sweet heart is still in two-rein, and she wears a thin, twisted snaffle. Because, that's where she is in her training stage. She was excellent in a bosal, but the more finesse training requires a quicker response and less signal. It's WAY hard to explain.

I don't think, again, I don't think, but I could learn otherwise, but I don't think curved versus not curved snaffles matters more than comfort in mouth. I would think curved may just feel better to horses. For my training especially, it doesn't, or hasn't yet, because I'm never really riding with pressure on the bit.

I know that it is a useful tool, and the interpretations for use are all good. It depends on what you want to do with the horse.

If Pete makes it through...and I'm not broke as a joke forever more,,, I've been wanting to take video of him to share with everyone here. He's a first class bridle horse, though he's a bit old, and a little less cat like...but our last real ride he out manuevered Pistol who was bound and determined not to get penned...and a horse is always harder to work than a cow...especially a fruit loop like Pistol (Everyone...that is a term of endearment...he is a fruit loop, but I love him for that).

I'm glad I posted this because it did make me think of that day, just a few short weeks ago...please keep hoping for my boy.....

Britz

[TrueStepPaso]

Okay......

TERRY, the mouths are tied shut from, imo, lack of acceptance of the bit. Dropped nose bands, tie-downs, etc. are just a band-aid for bad training.

I never said leverage bits were bad. Only that you shouldn't rely on them. Nor did I say that you can "ONLY" fine tune with snaffles....just that a well trained horse should be able to respond lightly and willingly to their requests from the rider in a snaffle as well.....and a halter, but, we're talking bits here for now.

Also, I know its the hands.....I've been saying that from day one. ;-)


PINTO, you can cut & paste all you want from other's ppl writings. Those theories are based on some really BAD hands/training. I don't have those worries here.


CINDY, I thought about clarifying that, but since this discussion is about bits, I figured it wasn't needed.......no, I don't feel that training should ever be limited to bits alone, and I think it's great that you ask for finesse in the jaquima.
You're response to the nut cracker effect is great, and I expected someone to mention this last time....you're right. A correct head set would put the horse in a position to receive more of an effect on the bars/palate, but, remember, this "nut cracker effect" would only happen if the horse and rider were green to such a mouthpiece.....and if the horse was green, then it's head would "up", not vertical at the poll anyway :lol: .

If the horse is advanced enough to hold its head set at the poll, then it is schooled enough to respond lightly to the bit, thus releaving itself of any possible "nut cracker effect".

[Terry Wallace]

I don't know that many horses ever need a bit.

Absolutely true...however..if you want to show in PFHA (or most any other shows..like reining for example)..you will need to bit as it is regarded as a "finished" horse once it is.

[Pinto Paso]

If he has half as much will as he has ability and oneriness that you have stated he will get this beat..

I am confused about a thick bit being more severe, I have always been taught and read that the finer (thinner the bit) the harsher it is... I find it to be this way with all of the cutting and reining horses that we bred for years as well - but we still did not use the snaffle as much as some did.

As far as Pasos not being in snaffle, one of the reasons is the conformation of the higher neck and different way of traveling... of the disciplines you described all were with trotting horses and I think that makes a difference.. I use the jaquima all most exclusively but as per some class rules at some point the horse must be bitted - I would rather progress them over a very extended period of time so that they are well bitted rather than work them for many years in a bosal and then all of a sudden bit them because the age requirement for the class states they must be bitted.. so if I plan on showing and promoting a horse that will end up in a bitted class then I will go through the whole bitting process.

[Terry Wallace]

TERRY, the mouths are tied shut from, imo, lack of acceptance of the bit.

TrueStep...WHY do you think that is...? I mean REALLY think that is????
You think it is all "bad training"? I beg to differ!

Good discussion! ;-)

[Pinto Paso]

That copy and paste is on the mechanics of the bits not on the training of a horse. While it is true the hands are the key - if the mechanics of a device make for a specific action then that is how they are designed.. If the snaffle is a starter bit as it is generally promoted then the horse is likely to be green. so I will continue to copy and paste to give people with less skills than you have a choice between using a bits and knowing what their purposes and mechanics actually are. I think that published articles by educated and experienced horseman are a great source and should be brought to peoples attention.

[TrueStepPaso]

I feel that it is from not spending enough time with horse to teach it to become soft to the bit/your hands.....not enough time to let the horse become comfortable with the bit. Most horses are not taught to properly accept pressure.

Also, the rider needs to experiment with the horse to know what bit the horse is more comfortable with....single joint, double, curved, thin, thick, etc....

It all boils down to education.

[britzlove]

Thanks Pinto...he's a good example though of real bridle finesse is all I mean. When we're talking about bits, bitting etc.

About the snaffle thickness...I read all that and heard all that too...and practiced that for YEARS until a very old, very wise man told me to push the mouth piece on the soft part of my hand at the thumb junction.
I spent years really paying attention to it also. Now, my background is not shared with many cutting and reining trainers of today...and I'm not taking anything away from them as I still view many of them as far outclassing many. I just mean to say that not all working western stock horses follow the same training plans.

But, if you really think about it, I never have more than pinky finger pressure on the bit, and only rarely becuase there's signals that come before that. But a pinky pull on a snaffle's rein, the thinner, lighter weight responds alot faster. It's not a confusing signal when done with correct history.

The paso fino training...I have a few I am starting in the halter, then jaquima then passing on to more experience or for trail/pleasure uses. I have one maybe two that I may want to show. I would like to buy another show paso someday, but I'll likely buy one already performing what I want.
I said high head...and I think that is the key here...as most stock horses are built to carry their head lower. I still want fexion at the poll though.

I have ALOT to learn about the gait, lots lots lots. Why the head set, exact finite adjustments etc. I'm pretty sure I won't be too sure what I'm talking about with regard to them for years and years. But I'm so excited to have something else to learn about. I see your point about the showing and I think that totally ties in to what I was mentioning about what the plans are for the horse.

Terry, when I discuss open reining here...I mean open shows, all breed shows. I can compete in a bosal forever if I want to if I can complete the pattern, and I can on many horses. It's sad, but even my beloved NRHA are starting to be corropted by the stupid AQHA crapola. There are a bizillion excellent reiners perfectly capable in a bosal. The finesse then, is the bitted ones. I agree though...serious reining competitors will be bitted, in one tradition or another.

Good discussion....

[cowboy ed]

erin, like someone else mentioned, stage one training for me is using a bosal. i use it on all the horses i start, regardless of breed. picture a 16.2 dutch warmblood filly in a colombian bosal. :lol:

i havent had any difficulty getting paso finos to gait with a snaffle bit in their mouth.

i recently rode my mounted shooting horse in a shanked, twisted wire dogbone bit because someone else had my HBT. the horse bucked. he never bucks. he hated that bit!

[ErinC]

erin, like someone else mentioned, stage one training for me is using a bosal.
OK , thanks - just wanted to know. ;-)

[CarolU]

Gosh ed, where do you get your bosals? I have to add snaps and straps to mine to fit just my bigger Pasos! Can't imagine one on a warmblood. LOL

[Pinto Paso]

hmmm - the old cowboy holds very different from even the old guys I learned from... My dad was quite old by the time I came around. He was a terrific horseman (I probably should have stayed home longer to learn even more from him) he and his brothers were saddle makers and made bits and bosals.. He rode and trained horses into his 80's - always stated the finer the metal the more experience hands had to have. Starting bits were very think, pregressing downward in size and sometimes higher in port as the training progressed. While I moved on to contest horses, our foundation was in ranch work - we ran hundreds of cow/calf pairs - we used horses every day.

I can understand the more bit with severe hands may be just as bad but I would like to hear more on the thicker bits.

[Cindy]

I agree the thinner mouthpiece bits are, hard to find the correct word to use here severe is in the hands stronger is not the right word, let's just say more bit than a thicker mouthpiece bit. BUT, there are some bits that are worse for the horse becuse they are TOO think. Most of the rubber Colombian mouthpieces are too thick for the comfort of the horse. So, I would rather have a thinner mouthpiece bit than one that is too thick. Beyond that, the thinner mouthpiece is going to give me more bit, a lighter rein on the horse.

As for not bitting horses, I would not call a horse trained that is not trained to the bit. As a trainer I would be doing a disservice to the horse to not train it to the bit and I would not do that to the horse. Now, once the horse is trained to the bit, I don't necessarily need to ride it in the bit all the time. But a horse, in my opinion, is not completely trained if it is not bitted.

[Pinto Paso]

I am going to see if my brother has any digital type pics of my Dad's bits that he can email me - We dont have many of this handmade things, most were soldor gifted to family friends when they were made... Stuff that he used was pretty much worn out when he passed away but my brother has a few items I think. I have an old set of spurs in a safe deposit box.. and I have one of his old saddles. All of it was pretty basic not much for fancy silver but his stuff worked.

[britzlove]

The differences between a loose ring snaffle and one that is fixed.
The differences between a typical weight and the newer, heavier ones.
The difference between a two-piece vs. three-piece snaffle.
Also does anyone have experience with brass mouthed snaffles?

My experience is limited to the traditional full cheek, D-ring snaffles and using a few that were three piece with toggles or rollers. Seems the fad these days is snaffle with loose rings, one that is heavy, or the three-piece design.


I think even I went around what Candice asked for.

In my experience, for the first question, about loose ring versus fixed, the loose ring was harder to achieve the right contact when over fences. The rein causes the ring to slide, the rein slides more easily on the ring into the wrong places. A fixed O-ring has some of the same problems, it will be far more common to see hunters, eventers etc using D-rings or Eggbutts. A full cheek is for a horse who is having trouble turning, or moving laterally, in that realm, it is common to find many people trying to move the horse from a full cheek to a egg or D, unless the horse is only a jumper and never shown flat, then it really doesn't matter.

In my other experiences it really didn't matter much fixed or loose.

Second question,
typical weight versus heavier..

If you are talking about the "weighted" snaffles, they are products of the AQHA/NSBA. It's to help shortcut some training mostly, and though I don't agree that it works commonly, I suppose some horses do respond to heavy bits when the only thing you want them to do is carry their head well below the vertical. It accents training. I have seen a few of the reiners using them now too, though I don't know, I equate this with the fact that you can look at today's reiners and those of only 3 years ago and follow a progression of heads down reiners that are pretty but can't do working cow horse because they can't be expected to focus on where they are holding their head, and try to track a calf. I've watched so much bad happen it really is a sticky subject for me, I had hoped to find it different with the paso fino and to some extent I have, but everytime someone holds the AQHA up as some wonderful thing...I get pissy.

Now, if you're just talking about heavier bodied snaffles, I go back to the experiment with the nerves in your hand. The area between your thumb and forefinger, generally padded with extra fatty tissue. There's a reason for this, but there's a plethora of nerve endings there, much like a horses mouth, commonsense, if you've got 20 nerves lined across an area say one inch across and you push a 3/4 inch diameter stick into that inch, you contact 75% of the nerves, push a 1/4 inch diameter stick, you contact 25% of the nerves. Now it's not that exact, but if you try the experiment, you'll see what I mean. Well, at least that's my perception.

I will also say that I have physically, with my own senses experienced that the thinner, lighter weight is more responsive, that is to say that the reflex of contact responds to zero more quickly.
There's a whole WORLD of knowledge training and practice attached to this...and it's a whole other thread..more than one actually. But for my experience in regard to Candice's question, thinner is better for the way that I currently use snaffles, and they way I have used them over the last several years.

Oh, I also have some experience with racehorses and for them it's an entirely different piece of equipment.

Now, three piece versus two, depending on the snaffle quality and maker etc, the three piece has more accurate response in contact situation. It feels better I'd imagine regardless.

What I use is two piece loose ringed snaffles. I have one that is pure silver that is a passed down heirloom, I have used alot. I have one that has a small reverse curve, only use it on the bridle it's attached to and it's attached to something I'm only using for a certain kind of horse, the last of which I trained at least 4 years ago...no...I did use it for Joe briefly but it wasn't effective in that situation. Anyhow. I also have a copper mouthed loose ring, thin, and the twisted thin.

Maybe I came close Candice?

[Candice Burger]

Thanks Britz! That is what I'm asking. I'm not asking if anyone agrees with using one or not for pasos. Frankly, I have a personal disdain for snaffles with pasos. I see too many uneven horses with broken mouthpieces and I blame the insensitive hands of the rider for that. I've seen even horses go to a broken mouthpiece, snaffle or curb, and become uneven because of the rider, all the while watching the rider blame the horse. So, no, I do not encourage the use of such bits. I owned one broken mouth piece curb bit for special uses. It was handmade and very well balanced. I also got the horse out of it and into a traditional solid mouthed curb bit ASAP.

BUT I have used them for certain horses with certain needs and tried to get them out of a snaffle for daily training ASAP. I prefer the action of a jaquima and leverage bit myself. Usually a horse that went into a snaffle was for a very specific issue. Once that issue was resolved I went back to a jaquima and back to a typical leverage curb bit.

BUT I have also used snaffles to start horses even though I prefer the "traditional" method of a jaquima and will do whatever it takes not to use a snaffle unless I have to. AND I have trained 1 or 2 with snaffles only because that is what the horse wanted. So, I try to keep a few snaffles around but I would prefer they remain rusty and dusty from lack of use.

AND inspite of my own personal feelings about snaffles, I spearheaded a rule change with PFHA back in the 70s to allow pasos to be shown with snaffles. I figured it's not right to punish a horse because of certain traditions. If a horse can exhibit good paso traits without cruelty in a snaffle bit, it has every right to be shown with a snaffle. Personally, I prefer to see horses bitted in a well-balanced curb and not stay in a jaquima either, but then I'm very old fashioned.

HOWEVER, I've come close to giving up the quest for jaquima only training from start until bitting with a curb for the idea of starting a few horses in a snaffle. I'm 50/50 on the idea right now. I'm more and more convinced the tack of preference has less to do with the mechanics of the bridle chosen and more to do with the trainer's personal peeves and tendencies real or imagined. And the horse? I don't see him in the equation most times. Some times, but not much.

I'm really not asking for a philosophical approach to snaffles but real life expereinces or knowledge about the physical and mechanical actions of the different snaffles offered today. What are the advantages or disadvantages to each design in the context of snaffle use? I mean this is a classical sense of training for lateral work.

Although it's nice to hear snaffle designs have evolved in the gimmicks and that is the drive behind such things as loose rings, heavy mouth pieces, multi-piece mouth pieces, what I'm trying to find out is after all the puffs of smoke of gimmicktry is cleared, how is that any different when doing real lateral work? Do these new designs really change the action of the snaffle with the horse and how so? To me toggles, rollers, three-piece, two piece, thin, thick, heavy, loose rein, is all about what the horse needs to understand the signal for lateral transitions. What I've heard is head up, head down and THAT is from the hands AND/OR a horse that is uncomfortable with the bit. A trainer can get a horse grazing grass with a curb or lighten up and high headed with a thick snaffle.

I'm really not focusing much on twisted wire snaffles or the thin snaffles. I consider that too specialized and not for starting a horse. More comparing the typical, old-fashioned snaffle to the newer models that have taken the tried and true and made it "better". How so? How is being heavier an advantage or having brass instead of copper or loose rings instead of the typical egg-butt?

[Terry Wallace]

Do these new designs really change the action of the snaffle with the horse and how so?

YES..unequivicably YES.... they are made for comfort!!! Its all in the design......its in the RELIEF... I'm totally sold on Mylers for that very reason...it lays comfortably in the mouth...no more nutcracker...much more desgined to the actual mouth of the horse....we already know a three piece snaffle affords more comfort...now take that dog-bone desing and SHAPE the ends...now you have it "even better"...JMO

Works for me! I'm not a gimmic type person either! No Monty halters, carrot sticks, "Parelli potpourri" at my place..but Myler bits..you bet!

I also like "wither fitted" saddle blankets.... I like what is the most comfortable for the horse... :D

[britzlove]

I'm really not focusing much on twisted wire snaffles or the thin snaffles. I consider that too specialized and not for starting a horse. More comparing the typical, old-fashioned snaffle to the newer models that have taken the tried and true and made it "better". How so? How is being heavier an advantage or having brass instead of copper or loose rings instead of the typical egg-butt?

I'll tell ya why the twisted on Bailey....just because she needs a little more of a hello than the plain thin snaffle I usually use. For my use in this case..it's specialized for her..yes.

The newer models meaning stuff with silly add ins, I don't know exactly, but like you, I view the snaffle as transistional, so I really don't know what's wrong with a regular snaffle in most circumstances. Except, like I said there are certain styles that really rely on it.

In my case, I'm going to have a horse doing whatever I need to do in a bosal...I'm not speaking of a colombian bosal...they do everything I want to do to work...but the precision can only come with bitting. Meaning...if I want to go out and play with cows or horses in herd work, I can get by just fine with the bosal. If I want precision...as is the case with show horses or serious work, I need to get some precision. Or, as in the case of Bailey Boo, I just crave the learning process, the science, the dance. It's what I look forward to learning with the pasos, but I'm a long way away.

When I'm asking Bailey to turn around, I'm asking for the turn with my whole body, and I'm asking her to turn with her whole body, get your bum under you and turn around. With the bosal, thats pretty, but the better along with the snaffle the quicker and more precise I can really get the nose. Now, the request for these horses is made in the hands at the exact same time as the rest of the body. I'm going to cue a rounded turn by aligning my outside leg a hair in front of center and the inside a hair behind, at the same time I just "lift" the leading rein (soo many riders just really can't grasp that). The request is always the same, the product is more precise with more precise training and bits.

What I was getting at there Candice I sure do go on don't I...
but anyway...the loose ring is old...my silver one is loose and since I drool over antiques...I know many old ones are loose. The difference in the above scenario is that if you "lift" the rein on a fixed eggbutt, you get an ENTIRELY different response than the loose. The loose finds the "sweet" spot on the particular mouth in the lift, the better the slide the better the response. Does that make sense at all?

And as far as weighted snaffles...if you're still training pasos only, I don't see a single reason you'd ever, ever need one.

Thanks Candice for this stimulation...it's great!

Britz

[Candice Burger]

Thanks gals!

I know what you mean Britzy. Not against using twisted snaffles, used 'em, and have allot of good reasons to like them. I just consider them something more on the specialized side than something I would grab for "routine" gear if that makes sense. Like grabbing a plain jaquima before grabbing one with metal on the nose or braided up on the jaw, etc.

Thanks for the explanation on the loose ring and yes I can see the mechanism there. It gives the advantage to the horse instead of the rider. I'm tempted to get a few and see if I can apply it to my advantage.

Now the weighted stuff-I dunno about that. I've tasted the brass bit (yes and I try horse feed too) and I think there is something to it.

Well, anyone that has more on this please share if you dare!

[Terry Wallace]

Hey Candice.... check your PM's from last week....did you get mine?

[Candice Burger]

:?: Nope, not since March.

[motorgypsy]

Wow what a fascinating thread!!!

Our perspective is a bit different in that we're science types and my degree is in physics so I tend to look at the construction of the bit in the light of what forces will be exerted on the horse's mouth by the bit.

Thick vs thin - a thin bit with the same force exerted on it will produce more force per unit area meaning you'll feel a larger force from this bit from the same pull. The same is true of the twisted wire - more force for the same pull. So - you use a much lighter pull with the thin and wire bits.

heavy vs light - you'll have an automatic downward vertical force on the mouth of the horse from this bit added to the force from the reins. I can see this useful to get a horse to change the normal position of the head simply because a different position would be more comfortable. If the head position is fine I don't see why you'd want a heavier bit.

two piece vs multi piece - the more pieces, the more even the pressure will be distributed through the mouth and the less force per unit area you'll have whereas the two piece will put more force per unit area on just a few spots. This means more comfortable with more pieces.

Fixed ring vs movable - haven't really thought about it but I sure remember pulling a snaffle all the way through my rental horse's mouth on many an occasion. Luckily he wouldn't take a step without many many kicks anyway so it didn't matter as far as his behavior was concerned.

different metals in the bit - as Rueben said you do get a current between different metals in contact. Don't know if the horse likes that or not. Gotta taste a brass bit. And yes we also taste horse feed. Our guys do like the rollers and the sweet iron but we don't have any fino mouth types.

But in the end we buy and use the bits our horses like whether we can figure out why or not. All of ours hated snaffles. They hated a Tom Thumb (wonder why??), they liked the kimberwick small port solid mouthpiece but had no whoa in really exciting situations like endurance rides with it although it was fabulous for speed events since their cueing for turns was fantastic and I would still probably use one in an arena if I forgot my mylers. They like the short shank mylers with the comfort mouthpiece or the three piece ported - not the ones that collapse though. They hate the Pelham short shank with the same mouthpiece - explain that one.

And last of all look up the Rutledge Roper bit. Our crazy old mare loves it. I don't use the bit for any cuing other than a slight pinky twitch when I first get on to let her know it's there but with any other bit she's a runaway freight train. With that one she's relaxed and is ridden totally from seat cues and body cues. Chinook hated it though. I used it one time and the next time she refused to open her mouth for the bit. I did tell her I was sorry and she forgave me when she got her Myler back. Brandy is a princess and the pea horse and we tried about ten bits on her before she decided she liked the kimberwick but no whoa and the myler was perfect. Gotta ask the horse what they prefer.