One rein stop alternative?

[SandyMM]

Found an interesting alternate opinion on the safety aspect of the one rein stop in this Jan '07 Western Horseman... something to consider.
http://www.westernhorseman.com/stories/12262006/man_20061226002.shtml

[Laura S]

So, how do you get the rest of the story?

I would like to know what the alternative is because I don't like to use one- rein stops on my gelding because he has arthritic hocks. And my daughter is riding him this summer after a few more lessons, so want to teach her what she could do, if she had to.

[SandyMM]

Sorry Laura... :oops: I stumbled across the article and it was late - so I didn't read all the way to the bottom - planned to do that sometime today. I'll see if I can't find a Jan 07 Western Horseman to get the rest of the article... My first official riding lessons were with a retired cavalry officer and he had a lot of tried and true methods that really worked great, so I was interested in following up on this.

There is a forum link on the Western Horseman website where both types of stops are discussed.
http://forums.westernhorseman.com/cgi-bin/bb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000060

Here is a blurb from
http://www.equineconnections.net/Newsletter.htm

In the January, 2007 edition of "Western Horseman Magazine", Curt Pate described his new "Cavalry Stop". The Montana horseman prefers this method over the one-rein-stop, citing that several riders were injured when their horses fell after using the one-rein-stop in emergency situations.

The "Cavalry Stop" originated with military instructors who needed a simple method to teach inexperienced cavalry troops how to quickly achieve control of their mounts. The manuever maintains the horse in a straight alignment by using one rein against the horse's neck to maintain straightness, while lifting the other rein vertically to "check" the horse's forward momentum. By elevating the horse's head, the horse automatically begins to slow his speed.

Curt Pate argues that his method is a better alternative for trail riders who may not be able to bend a horse safely on a narrow trail. He also feels that the Cavalry Stop keeps the rider in better control because the horse and rider are both able to maintain their balance.

Offering horsemen more "choices" to help protect ourselves and our equine partners rates very high with me, so I have been learning the "Cavalry Stop" with a group of polo horses in Tampa, previously schooled in the one-rein stop. I will be introducing this great technique to everyone in the 2007 clinic season, in addition to the one-rein stop.


HorseCity.com also has a discussion about the article:
http://forums.horsecity.com/cgi-bin/bb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=015212

[pasohappy]

Its a great article, I have the magazine, its a lot safer that the one rein stop.

[SandyMM]

Pulling a dead runaway off-balance has always seemed counter-productive and just as likely to cause severe injury as the original problem. One of the things my instructor taught me was the 'emergency dismount' at 'run speed' which ended with me standing at the horse's head - still holding the reins. I'm too creaky now to do it - but it was a pretty amazing maneuver back when I could....

[reuben T]

Mike Kinsey says the one rein stop rewards the horse for the wrong behaviour, and he teaches a little different approch. A book I got long ago from a library "the family horse" (out of print at that time) had instructions for stopping a running away horse which was kind of a strong version of the one rein with added heel, but said be very careful as it could throw the horse.

[cowboy ed]

one rein stops work absolutely great on a horse that has been taught that method. doing it with a horse that hasnt been taught is where the trouble comes in. thats when you can cause a horse to fall.

i still say, based on lots of experience with using one rein stops on horses that have been taught the method on the ground first, the one rein stop is an excellent method for bringing a horse under control and getting it to relax.

the cavalry stop looks like an interesting concept, and i think i will try it, just to see what it is like.

[Cindy]

What happened to just teaching the horse to stop? You know, pull back on the rein, horse gives to pressure, horse stops. That method has worked for me for a very long time and I don't worry about any horse that I have broke ever running away with me as I have taught them all to stop in this manner. Two reins, two hands, one stop, priceless.

[Pinto Paso]

I was wondering the same thing Cindy... I have only had one runaway in many many years of training and it was a newly purchased horse....

So if the horse is a bolter or spoiled runaway and you can teach it the one rein stop why not just teach the proper stopping method? If the one rein stop is not to be used on horses that are not trained for it why would you use it :shock: why is a trained horse running away?

I understand the need to be prepared for all situations but it seems that the one rein stop has more chance of injury to a rider than not in a wrong situation.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I 200% agreed with Cindy.............and Stef.............

[Brigitte]

It only happened once that I was on a runaway horse. I was cantering and one side of the reins broke and off Marinero went. I was too afraid to just turn him around so I let him run to the ranch when he was almost there and started slowing down I dared to turn his head around then jump off. Glad it turned out like that.

[Laura S]

Thanks Sandy for posting all that info. :D

[motorgypsy]

Cindy whatever you do to train whoa works really well because both Lula and Kalua have the absolute best "whoas" and have had from the beginning even after some months in the pasture. They like the bits we use with them which helps but somehow they have in their minds that stopping is not a bad thing. It may be a trust thing that they have developed being lucky enough to have both you and John from Barb's working with them but whatever it is all they need is the slightest backward lean and the slightest rein cue to slow or stop. Or maybe they're just lazy!!! Ya think!!?? NOT!!

For us a horse should stop from being asked many different ways because in an emergency situation the rider may not be able to use their preferred stopping technique. We use verbal cues such as HALT, seat cues - lean quickly back and up and relax, one rein cue, two rein pull release, and drop the reins and totally relax and we also teach them to stop from a ground person's cue if the person in the saddle becomes disabled. Gotta try this new stop cue. Sounds very interesting.

[Cindy]

Well all I can say is I understand what Carol U was talking about because I was in on that thread. After I could see the concept of the one rein stop, or the alternative was being criticized I didn't want to be involved on that thread anymore. The topic of the thread was the alternative to the one rein stop and what THAT was all about. Not whether or not the one-rein stop works or not, or should be taught or not. Or the fact that a well trained horse should be taught to stop when asked period. I respect all your opinions as your opinions, and I don't think less of anybody for having a different opinion than mine. But when people start saying their training methods are superior to anothers, thats when I personally "leave" the conversation as it has no purpose. I am here to learn, not listen to trainers bash each others opinions or training methods!

So, say my daughter is riding a top notch well trained horse that has been "properly" taught to stop. And she was riding one day and got into a bees nest. How is a 60 lb child supposed to stop that horse? Even a perfectly trained horse can have "moments". And in my OPINION safety is everything.


Laura, an alternative to the one rein stop is the two rein stop. I have problems with people being taught the one rein stop and it is because of a safety issue. Ed and I have discussed this before and he has a different phylosophy. We disagree and that is fine. Take whichever one you think is best for your style of riding. A horse that is properly trained to stop with the traditional two rein method will stop whether the rider is 60 pounds or 260 pounds as will one that is trained to do the one rein stop. I just prefer the traditional stop and feel that people who are taught the one rein stop are at a disadvantage if the horse has not been trained this way and that can lead to the person and/or horse being put in harms way. I am sorry that you feel that these issues should not be discussed as to pro and cons when they are brought up but it is my opinion that that is what discussions are for. If everyone agreed on everything and was not allowed to present alternate methods for training horses we would be limiting ourselves as different things work for different horses and riders. Unlike some people I do not feel that everyone must agree with my thinking and therefore have no problem with different opinions being presented whether presented by myself as different from others or being presented by others as different to mine. That is in my opinion the best way to learn. With ALL sides and ALL facts presented.

[Candice Burger]

Don't see the issue here.

Both require introduction and training

Both have good points

Both have bad points

But both have the be TRAINED to work safely and correctly. Don't know of any horse that understands what the cues are about until taught. They aren't born with a bridle or halter on their head knowing what a human expects.

And Cindy makes the best point of all, it doesn't matter what YOU know, but what the HORSE knows and the rider needs to know the difference.

[Boyd R]

Brigitte brought up the perfect reason to teach a horse a one rein stop in her post. I have seen reins or buckles on them break or just plainly come off. The key is to teach the horse then the rider.

[Pasogirlz]

Brigitte brought up the perfect reason to teach a horse a one rein stop in her post. I have seen reins or buckles on them break or just plainly come off. The key is to teach the horse then the rider.

And on the flip side, sometimes a horse can become accustomed to the one rein stop, and anticipate it to the point that they brace themselves against it and go thru it when cued.

That is why different techniques are needed for different horses. ;-) And why it is good to know both ways as riders....just in case of emergency.

[Cindy]

That's agood point, Boyd. I will go you one further. I have had the entire headgear break to the point that I had NO reins to stop the horse. And on more than one occasion as I take terrible care of my tack and tend to use it till it breaks. Not once when this has happened, and it is usually on young green horses, have I ever not been able to stop the horse. Why, because a horse that is truely and properly trained to stop does not need one or two reins to stop. The reins are used as cues and to reinforce but the treuly trained stop should come from the seat. But that is a whole nother discussion, isn't it? Maybe we should start a new thread. Call it "the alternateive to using the reins to stop the horse".

[Pasogirlz]

Maybe we should start a new thread. Call it "the alternateive to using the reins to stop the horse".

Great idea. 8-)

[Boyd R]

I was thinking that myself Cindy. Shaw trained Porcy to stop from the seat. I failed to learn the art of it though. I would be curious to see if it worked well on a runaway though. But then a runaway probably is not trained in the first place. Now is it???

[cowboy ed]

see? great discussion! and just so ya'll will know, i do teach horses a conventional two rein stop too. or, if i train the horse long enough, to stop with a relaxed seat and the verbal cue, whoa. notice i use whoa, not ho, i just dont like the sound of ho.

in my initial training, i teach the horse the one rein stop as the first method they learn. then i go to the two rein stop. i usually teach the two rein stop after the third or fourth time under saddle, depends on the horse.

these other stop methods, one rein, cavalry, etc., are for certain situations, and not something that you would use all the time.

[Candice Burger]

Good Idea Cindy! And so true!

I was reading one of Sylvia Loch's book last night discussing how most maneuvers are from the seat and not the bridle. She was talking about the three point seat and how it engages the horse and rider.

Boyd there's another discussion by Hans Von Blixen-Finecke that talks about how the master trainer/teacher would put his students on green horses and then take them out to a field with the stern command not to touch the head of the horse for control! Quite a story, but no runaways either!

And then there is the thought from the recent clinic I attended, which emphasized not using the head for any control. As soon as someone put too much pressure on the head of a colt, he would start running or bucking.

[Laura S]

My first paso was very well trained, he came from Andres Mejia's farm. And I can say that horse definately would stop on a dime, and it was with seat cue's first, followed by only a tiny rein cue. But if I were to put a rider on him that was green I would teach them the one rein stop as well, to only use in an emergency.

[Laura S]

And just wanted to add after reading Candance's post. One of the best lessons I had as a rider was on the lunge line with no reins. I had to get the horse to walk, corto and stop all with seat cues. It really taught me to have confidence in using my seat, and it helped me to be more connected with the horse. I wish I could have more lessons like that!

[Cindy]

But then a runaway probably is not trained in the first place. Now is it???

There you go. :lol:

I first teach the horse to submit to control of the head as I think it is a very important safety aspect that the horse needs to learn and I will not get on a horse until and unless I can control it's head and it's motion at all times from the ground. But the control of the head on a horse of advanced training is not to control the horse but rather to acheive more precise movements. A well trained horse should not need the head control to simply be ridden steered, stopped, etc. If more riders would learn to ride from the seat, more riders would have much better hands. One cannot have good hands without a good seat but unfortunately many people try to work on their hands before they have a stable enough seat to have steady hands. An effort in futulity and very frustrating for the rider (and the horse).

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

One thing that I always questioned!!!!! why complicate things so much!!!!
some horses you need to read a 220 page DIRECTION OPERATIONAL MANUAL , even for opening their STALL DOOR......... why not make it simple?????

Train the horse to resspond from your seat...... and everyone will speak on the same NOTE.......

[CarolU]

Well, I don't see any point in retyping it all. BTDT have the T-shirt.

http://www.americanpasofinos.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5858&start=30&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Carol, if they are boulting, just dropp one rein, grab the maine and with the one rein that you are holding bring it to your waist( flex) ? am I wrong?

[Candice Burger]

Hmm yeah, Caliber you are wrong. Right idea, wrong method.

The idea is to disengage the back end on a one rein stop. One reason why some trainers, like Cindy, say it's dangerous on a horse that you forceably disengage the rear while running. It is!!! And why others, like Don, say a horse can run through the cue. They do!!! Particularly with horses that have been overly flexed for suppling purposes. They are no longer supple but totally desensitized and rubber necked. Flexing is an exercise that does not disengage the hind quarters. And why many are cautious to give 100% support because a horse that is not trained on a one-rein stop, well, won't and you could really get seriously hurt.

One rein stop, like two rein stop is a trained response to a particular cue. The idea is to remove the bracing that is allowing the horse to run through the bridle. Another reason why the emphasis should be in the seat to begin with--to begin removing the brace. Kinda surprised no one has mentioned "cheeking" a horse, since we're all puffed up for action here.

Again, it's all about training both rider and horse.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Thanks Candice I agreed with you, SEAT!!!!! is the basic, but with my method that is exactly what I am doing disengaging the hinds, dont take me wrong I am not a fan of THE FLEXING fashion so often used by many jejejejejejeje. The way I flex a horse you can not even see what I am doing......... I doing to call a horse to the bit.

But as worked very well...... AM I STILL OFF?


Saludos

[Candice Burger]

:lol: :lol: 8-) 8-)

Nope, I understand better, thanks for clearing that up!

[Mellifluous]

Well, I will confess that I am a sucky, self taught rider.

I do not ride properly in any way shape or form. Luckily, I have not gotten myself killed.

I love reading these threads and trying to dissect everything in my mind to see if I can picture what you are talking about and trying it at home. I really am interested in the seat cues thing.

Could some of you elaborate, explain how I can work on that at home?

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

:lol: :lol: 8-) 8-)

Nope, I understand better, thanks for clearing that up!


:lol: :lol: :lol: LOL Candice

Saludos

[Kerry W]

Well, I will confess that I am a sucky, self taught rider.


Don't forget brave (for posting that)! :lol:

Wonder who taught the first person how to ride? You reckon they took lessons from someone, or just learned as they went? :confused

[Candice Burger]

Don't forget brave (for posting that)! :lol:

Wonder who taught the first person how to ride? You reckon they took lessons from someone, or just learned as they went? :confused

the horse!

[Kerry W]

Don't forget brave (for posting that)! :lol:

Wonder who taught the first person how to ride? You reckon they took lessons from someone, or just learned as they went? :confused

the horse!

Did the horses get dumber, or did we? :shock:

[Candice Burger]

Don't feel too bad Mel. I still can't mount or dismount worth a hoot. I'm determined to master this before I'm too old to do it any more.

Hopefully someone will latch onto this and discuss it separately. The alluded topic is about the independent seat and how the seat communicates the first intentions of the rider. Don't fool yourself into thinking a saddle buffers all that.

http://petcaretips.net/master-riding-skills.html

http://www.petcaretips.net/stay-relaxed-horse-riding.html

[Candice Burger]

:lol: :lol:

Kerry, hon, I think it is us.

[Kerry W]

:lol: :lol:

Kerry, hon, I think it is us.

:shock: So, that means...the horses are laughing at us??? :shock:

[Abejita]

no they cuss at us under their breath and just put up with us because we feed them

[Kerry W]

no they cuss at us under their breath and just put up with us because we feed them

That can't be good. http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/scared3.gif

[Candice Burger]

no they cuss at us under their breath and just put up with us because we feed them

Yeah the smirks get to me.

[CarolU]

You all just need a more talkative horse. Mine **SNORTS** at me and throws her head and lets me know JUST how PO'd at me she is. She's even thrown feed bags out of the stall when she didn't like the contents.

Who said, "horses can't talk??"

[Laura S]

Mel, one really good book about riding is called Centered Riding by Sally Swift. She has really good descriptions and gives you mental images to help you ride with a balanced seat. You probably ride with your seat and don't even realize it. Like when the horse is moving, you keep your pelvis loose, and move with the horse, when you want to stop your horse, you first stop your "energy" or movement in your pelvis/seat, then you "sit" or make your seat very deep, then do the rein cue. I am no expert at all, but that is how I do it. And I was at a Carlos Tobon clinic and that is how he taught us to stop a horse.

[CarolU]

There is only one thing to know to ride well...relax.

[pasoglide]

I have the book centered riding I read it years ago and studdied it . I didn't under it until Patti gave me lessons and everything finaly clicked.
I was so excited . :D

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

I am no expert at all, but that is how I do it. And I was at a Carlos Tobon clinic and that is how he taught us to stop a horse.

After Mr. Tobon clinic............ YOU ARE AN EXPERT!!!!!!!!

[motorgypsy]

Chinook's bucking and standing on the deck of a boat running at top speed in a chop taught me balanced riding.

I had lessons - LOTS of lessons. Learned nothing. Really bad student. Instructor made us ride bareback to "find our balance". I never found it. Fell off the horse two or three times a day. Got runaway with repeatedly. Learned the hanging under the neck thing like a monkey really well.

Two things I heard in my old age really stuck with me


First be a proactive rider, not a reactive rider. That is really really true. Not that I don't get surprises but I really don't like them.

And second - yes you ride balanced but you don't "find your balance", you actively balance because when YOU tell the horse what you want the horse to do it's second nature to properly adjust your body so you stay on.

I also like the one that says "you go where you look". Very true also.

I'm sure there are very good riding instructors. I was just a really poor student because I had to learn to ride like I learned to walk - by just doing it until it felt right. I still need to know what the heck to do with my arms though when the horse cues from just body movement. Haven't figure that one out.

[Kerry W]

How'd you get her to stand on the deck of that boat? :shock:

Edited to add: :worthless

I'd really like to see that! :shock:

[Mellifluous]

I think I am doing some things right. I can stay on if something unexpected occurs, I am heavy but I don't make my horse's back sore - I like to think that it is a combo of good saddle fit and me not being a sack of taters.

I have often wondered what would happen if I went and took lessons with instructors from different disciplines. I wonder which one I would have the most in common with as far as my "methods"

[motorgypsy]

Now you know Chinook will do anything for a carrot!!! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Seriously I've always wanted to get a barge, plant the top of it in a tough pasture grass, build a little hut on it and take our horses on a trip down the intercoastal waterway on it. At each stopover we'll tack up and head to a nice restaurant, hitch them up to a tree and enjoy dinner, then go for a ride on the beach or down town and see the sights.

Pictures later!! Although Brilliant definitely wants to go on a boat trip!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/motorgypsy/IMG_1563a.jpg

[Kerry W]

;-)