?s About Differences among Paso Horses

[britzlove]

Congratulations to Lori on her new TyG!

The questions arising though...I frequently ponder...and I'm sure there's others of you out there.

Many suggested I read Paso Fino Horses by Raul Estrada Londono..which I did happily. I believe I think I understand this basically. So I'll put my take on it, and hopefully people can let me know if I'm getting it...or not.

Spanish descended horses were brought to many areas of the New World. At that time, I'm not sure they would be percieved as breeds the same way we percieve them today. Horses of certain characteristics were bred together to reproduce, or improve these characteristics. Even though there is lineage tracing when you go back that far it's not the same as the current product of definition. (If you study Thoroughbred history it's similar too).

Now, upon observance it's clear that many New World horses do have some similarities to each other...and to me that makes sense knowing that the parent herd when the Spanish brought them were related, even though seperated by generations. Some of them were preferred for smooth way of going descending I suppose from a herd of Spanish horses, called the Jennet, but also at that point had already benefitted from some purposeful refinement. Some were refined for physical characteristics, manners, way of movement, intelligence etc. What I'm saying is the lines were blurrier.

Now, the spanish horses like the spanish explorers radiated all across the central/southern american continent and varies islands scattered across. If you believe in natural selection, then some of the new characteristics may have occured naturally...to me though its more likely that horses in different enviorments were manually selected to refine even more different characteristics which were more suited now to the new surroundings and purposes.

Peru is pretty far away from Colombia, and PR, in terms of travel at the time. It makes sense to me that the people of both places began selecting horses of smooth traveling ways of going. Perhaps the flair in the step, the manner of travel for the Peruvians is what that culture deemed attractive. I'm certain it served there purposes as the refinement for it became more uniform and over time a breed developed as what we think of. So, we have Peruvian Pasos, linked only to the Paso Colombiano in the word paso (step, right?), and 100s of years prior in lineage. Both cultures selected for a stepping way of smooth movement.

The differences now, are clear. Each culture has chosen different minute presentations to select for and refine. The were regionally bred seperating them. Each culture, each region was unique to itself so the horses became as well.

Here's where for me I hope I can clearly state this, I think I understand it, but I want to be sure. In the Colombian region/culture, horses were selected for a bundle of characteristics, including quite importantly Brios which is a bundle of intelligence, responsiveness, impulsion, but also bundled with physical representations of preference leading to type of appearance.

In the Colombian horses, they are shared in some lineages, and they can be interbred in Colombia, though generally, the practice is to bred way of going to way of going, type to type. Breed fino to fino, trocha to trocha, TyG to TyG, but there are occurances where it is occasionally still crossed, or no? I'm trying to sort this out but it seems to me, that impressive animals of certain characteristics before American interference, were selected for certain expressions of these. The reason I'm thinking that in Contefepaso (did I spell right?) modality, way of going does not have to be claimed for permanent until age 5, right?

So my question would be then, would it still be considered the occurance that it is possible though not probable now, that you could have a TyG express itself from a fino parent?

I'm trying so hard to figure this out. I see the Colombian horses as one big circle of related horses, with smaller circles inside the bigger one, the mother circle if you will, being the different expressions of manner of travel.???Am I close at all?

Then, so I can get really confused, throw in Puerto Rico paso finos. I'm understanding them, like the Peruvians. The original herd in PR was a result of radiating Spanish. The selections were similar in the culture for the smooth, way of travelling. Different physical characteristics, different out cross refining matings...but the two developed similarly...though completely different. The PR reflection of four beat equal timed gait became of large importance.

In American, we cross breed them...but is that done elsewhere? Now we have the movement to completely purify the differences...many more pure Puerto Rican pasos though that confuses me too?????

I know there is a tendency occasionally here to over Americanize things. I do not say that being unpatriotic...just I want everyone to know that it happens. I also know that to me, just to me, my opinion, I am in debt to the cultures that worked so hard to refine what to me may very well be the perfect horse. I love the paso fino, I love the TyG, I love the Trocha pure, I love the PPR paso fino. I just want help sorting it all out.

Feel free to pick my post apart and be as critical as you want...I promise not to get my feelings hurt at all. I just want to learn...everything I can about them because I love them SOOOOOOOO much.

Britz

[Candice Burger]

All depends on what you think a "breed" is and what is "pure". Define that and I think the rest will clarify themselves.

Standardbreds were all trotters until the stud book was open to allow pacers. Is this a breed?

Saddlebreds have 3-gaited and 5-gaited horses some can perform the rack and slow gait. Narrangansett Pacer X Thoroughbred

TN Walking horses introduced saddlebreds in the 1950s(?) or in that time fram. Are they considered pure? The "father" of TWH is Black Allen out of a trotter and Morgan mare. The Narranganseett Pacer is part of the foundation genetics

The Thoroughbred is a mix of Berber, Turk, Arabian and native horses. Is the breed "pure"? Many TB experts argue it is not, but a "hybrid" and point to the variability in phenotype and performances.


Are Americans "mixing" or crossbreeding or simply doing openly what countries have done silently but on a more grander and wholesale scale?

The variability of both "breeds" has responded to the American market becoming more focused--is this more "pure" or is it squelching the diversity of expression? Although still not exactly the same, I see the traits picked out for COL horses that were not given such high priorities as the past and the same with the PPR horses making them both more alike.

The ancestral commonality between COL and PPR is so close and so similar are they different or has geography limited bloodlines that would have normally resided together?

EDIT Is the "mixing" more about the "other" breeds that were introduced to help "improve" the paso and less about the paso genetic history?

I'm anxiously waiting and looking forward to the day that geneticists are able to tell me what, if any, genetic differences there are between different paso "breeds" because the more I observe the more I believe we are using our tastes to dictate what a breed is and nothing more. PPR breeders pick what they like as do COL breeders using the same genetic mix.

It is only now with DNA testing that it's less like to see some under the table trading going on and pedigrees magically appear or disappear. Afterall this is been only in the last 20 odd years. What was going on before that in the "pure" debate?

[Terry Wallace]

Breed fino to fino, trocha to trocha, TyG to TyG, but there are occurances where it is occasionally still crossed, or no?

Answer is Yes. Or it was yes in Fabio Ochoa's days. If you can get your hands of the two volumes of Mi Vida En El Mundo de los Caballos....you will see the pedigrees of crosses of trocha to Paso Fino, etc... many, many times in those books.

would it still be considered the occurance that it is possible though not probable now, that you could have a TyG express itself from a fino parent?


Answer...yes its possible and happens. Probability would depend on how the horse is bred.

Brios which is a bundle of intelligence, responsiveness, impulsion,



I would not define brio as intelliegence or responsiveness...but more of "level of energy".

[britzlove]

I think Candice what you are discussing with concern to the TBs is how I've tried to approach this thinking.

Now, in American, the TB is a "breed" meaning it is closed to outcrosses. But, they arrived here mutts, more or less. Meaning, there is tracking of parentage that led to the American TB, but at the corresponding times in Britain, there were outcrosses and periods of lost lineage. And for many different reasons these outcrosses happened. But the reason to breed was to perform in racing of the time. They bred African peninsula stallions because at the time Charles believe it was, was mainly stationed there in S. Africa and could choose from really nice tough, fleet animals. ( I mean there were others, but the African stallions weren't called Africans, just individual names)

So I see what you are saying and so glad you came to post and help me. This TB similarity is how I look at the whole thing. The early paso horses are named individuals with some lineage tracking, but the key to the reproduction was an attempt to combine two horses, a nice mare, and and excellent stallion in hopes of reproducing a horse of certain characteristics present in the parents.

So, if you go back along TB lines, you'll get to a bundle of horses chosen for representing characteristics that would help them be better race horses. Bigger, larger lung capacity, stamina in adverse conditions. Not because he was a TB..there wasn't such a thing, in fact probably the best example to help here because Thoroughbred was just Thoroughly Bred. Meaning there were records kept of the parentage named.

The big question for me, is the lost period here. I mean, I know where it all started, but what in the interim? I have NO problem with outcrossing to make a superior animal.

As for breed definition, you have to go back to native horses developed under natural selection for me to believe it's "pure". All breeds of today's world were crossed at some point...like you mentioned with pacers, and walkers, but look even in Europe towards the big warmblood breeds, they are the result also of crosses, they didn't just pop up and poof here they are.

When did the sharing of PR and Col lines begin? Have they always? I mean...I'd like to hear opinions even...but it's like pulling teeth to try.
Can you get a TyG from two fino parents?
I understand at some point that the paths seperated and the condensing of breeding goaled towards seperating the modelities...but when? I mean, to me they are all as glorious as the other. For me, wanting a showy flashy good looking, spanish quality horse...I really wouldn't care whether fino, TyG, trocha...they all have smooth, they all have brio and power characteristics I love them for. For me, it's that something else, almost indefinable about them.

But, being somewhat of a nerd...I'd love to try and figure it out.

So breed, I would now define as closed lineage records. But type, a whole different idea, encompassing the regional cultural definition, and shared physical markers. Does that help a little? Maybe?

I don't know what I expect just...trying to define it a little more for me to understand.

[Brigitte]

Can you get a TyG from two fino parents?
Nope

The whole Paso Fino/Trocha/TyG thing is complicated. How are they related ? I don't know. I don't care much, not now maybe later. But fino and trocha are more mixed than tyg and fino. Imo, they mixed fino and trocha alot back then. A trocha stallion (by rescate i think?, trocha mundial champion 95), sired a fino somewhat trocha mare who was crossed with another trochador and they produced a fino son. Go figure.

How precisely they started separating them I don't know, but one would assume that they have a few gran sires in common for them to be called the paso horses family? That's what I think. It's a confusing thing, those breeds. I just care to know if a horse is trocha, fino or TyG and what the parents were, don't care to go farther back. From now on though they should only mix fino with fino trocha with trocha etc. I don't like when they mix trocha with tyg. It's more accepted though because they're both diagonal and the mixing of the two can give the offspring a faster trote.

[Kerry W]

Just to clarify a couple of things...CONFEPASO doesn't register horses. It's sort of like the United Nations for Paso horses. PFHA is a member of CONFEPASO...it governs international interests for the Paso breed.

A change of modality is done through Fedequinas, which is the registry for horses in Colombia. The horses are registered, at birth, in the modality of their parents. If the foal exhibits a completely different modality than it was registered in, the owner MAY request a modality change, up to age 5. The modality is noted on the reg. papers, like color is here.

In order to have the modality changed, the horse must be evaluated by a Vet, a certified Fedequinas judge, and the president of the registering association*, or someone designated by that president. If all three concur, then the modality may be changed. So to say that they are not set in a modality until age 5, sort of trivializes the whole process. It is a big deal, and you cannot just change it on a whim because you want to.

*Fedequinas is comprised of associations (much like our regions). The associations handle all paperwork (registrations, transfers, etc.), and submit that paperwork to Fedequinas.

[britzlove]

So to say that they are not set in a modality until age 5, sort of trivializes the whole process. It is a big deal, and you cannot just change it on a whim because you want to.


Oh make no mistake I'm not trying to trivialize anything, just still new enough I can't always ask the right questions in the right way...but that was a great in depth explanation and I really appreciate it.

The inspection process..that's pretty cool. I wish we had more structured here that way, but our natures...well we wouldn't be as successful in my opinion.

There's such a tendency to attempt to make it fit our American philosophy and I just hope the art is not lost. The horses we have today are the results of centuries of artwork...the tendency to drift away from that in my opinion is a bit sad. We like to name drop...fit a certain mold.

Could we breed our thoroughbreds to African stallions now, if it's end result produced better racehorses? Nope....the entire structure would crumble.


Brigitte mentioned breeding in trocha for faster trote (and some other cool things for me to think on), why would that be so frustrating to us?

Here I am new to the whole thing and I see stuff like the threads where we don't want other modalities having anything to do with our fino gaited horses...but also threads where we are upset with the problems with gait present.

I'm just really trying to understand if I can, some things that would help me understand the above problems.

[Candice Burger]

Maybe we should investigate the evolution of genetic material. Not in the terms of mutation but in the terms of recombination. Production really is nature's lottery. The number of possible combinations of chromosomes is boundless. Humans pick the results they like and hope to maintain that combination as much as possible. Thing is we aren't sure if the expression we like is one combination or many combinations that look alike.

Can we take the origins of a breed today and reintroduce them into a population that has been kept seperate? Probably not. Not because they are "different" in expression but because the genetic material from the ancestor parent is different today than it was centuries earlier. What was lost or gained in that time period? What changed or remained the same? We don't know. So to be safe, we don't do it.

People get upset because they want to protect the population's ability to recombine and yet maintain its outward expression with relatively little change to that expression. Yet it does change, perceptively so because our tastes of what we like change. Too many times we are tempted to compare yersterday's horses with today's. Not fair. Did yesterday's horses have the probable genetic combination available to them to express today's tastes? Certainly they had the material but in the right order or sequence and all in the same horse?

We worry about genetic dilution instead of genetic concentration when we talk about other modalities or gait tolerances. Maybe it is the concentration not the dilution that causes horses not to gait. Are we concentrating the trotter or the pacer, which ancestor, when we breed? Are we not really wanting a true mix of both expressions with the right genetic combination to make a horse we call "fino"? I think so. Do we know how each contributes? I think we do not.

I've been podering the same question Britzy. I've got to do this one day. I have heard of a breeder in Germany that is crossing Andalusian stallions with Peruvian mares. Maybe his results will explain gait better and how much influence there may be and who contributes what genes to make the cross desireable. There is another breeder that is inbreeding Barb horses and getting gait and a nice Berber phenotype. Maybe there is a clue as to how and why we have the horses we have in pasos.

[Terry Wallace]

Candice...does that Breeder in Germany use the original gaited type of Andalusian?

[Candice Burger]

I don't know Terry. I'd like to find out what type of Andalusian and what the results are.

[reuben T]

from what I've read, It sounds like back in the days of horse powered transportation different regions of Colombia had their favorate type of horse/gait, depending on the terrien they traveled and the jobs they were used for. Along with the variations from geographic isolation of other lines, made for a number of different lines with gait variations.
But then they kind of got mixed together in what's being called the american paso fino.
Sence the trotting horse seems more desirable for carriage work, and sence at certain times in history (generally in the more civilized countrys) most horse use was restricted to harness work, the gaited horses had no value and were not propagated. (why the jennet died out in Spain?)

[britzlove]

New question..kinda related...but with regard to standardbreds, can't the offspring be either or trotter or pacer now? With higher probabilities strived for because people have preferences for training, and certainly for betting? I mean it's been awhile since I've hung out with many STB people so I may very well need some correction.

And that's related because like mentioned the selection had a purpose.

I do realize that people change things to suit their personals tastes. We always have. But. like you are saying Candice, how certain are we that we can be improving our production chances?

I mentioned thoroughbreds only because I know quite a bit more about them than I do pasos. I'm using them like the trotters etc to attempt to use the information.
My example of the African stallions. The King was living in South Africa, he loved racehorses, here were these tough, durable horses that could run and run and run. Racehorses of the time ran a 3 mile short race, to put it in perspective. The King had a :idea: and thought hey, these characteristics would improve the stamina of our racehorses...put them on a ship. People may have heard of the Barbary in crosses but do not understand it happened not in one or two crosses but several...like you mentioned helping to concentrate the characteristics.
So now, do I think we should reopen the stud book to outcross? Absolutely I do, our distance horses are really suffering some setbacks and I don't understand why not improve it that way?

And here's what it breaks down to for this discussion....for me..
If I bred an amazing, beautful, statuesque, conformationally close to correct and in many other ways extraordinary stallion, who performs in fino, to a mare of the same type quality....could a trocha result? (I know I've had yes answers but I'm hoping for more) Am I then supposed to bang my head on the wall and cry and scream? I mean what if the foal grew into a horse that expressed every other good characteristics of his parents...just a little different gait...am I supposed to be upset?
The answer of course for me is that no, I wouldn't be at all, because I'd still have a wonderful mount, that put thousands of others to shame...I mean a paso comes out on top of all the other just another horses.

But I need to know...does seperation help define the characteristics then? Are there benefits to combining modalities, if so what might they be? Theories accepted? It was mentioned trocha used for improvments...but I'd really truly love to know what theories abound out there about these breedings...and then...are there any physical markers also that may point towards a certain gait style?
I once heard that there were physical markers for performance style paso fino horses..but recieved a cold shoulder whenI tried to learn what they were...I mean even if just a theory I'd have loved to learn about it. The book I mentioned goes into to it a little bit, but I've never been a person to accept an individual's perspective alone.


I would really like to know anything about these horses that defines for me, why the hesitance to co-mingle modalities, or the preference for combination.

And, what of PR? Can some one please tell me more about the phenetic differences between PR paso finos and COL? It's discussed all the time like I'm supposed to have gained that somehow through osmosis I guess. Sure I can observe a few things I can see a little different maybe, but don't want to remain a dunce forever...help me out here.

Books...that may answer my questions...or articles please point me in the right direction.

[motorgypsy]

First of all let's make sure everyone understands that a trocahdor is very different from a paso fino who will trocha when tired or who did the trocha gait when young. The second case is very very common. If you consider the five gaited saddlebred horse you see that many of our horses, if observed carefully, can do many many gaits quite naturally. All we do is teach them to do the gait we want "on cue". The trochador gait is very fast, four beat, uneven, apparently closer to the trot than the paso fino and even the phenotype of this horse is different. A trotty paso fino does not do this gait. Colombian breeders say that even if you have a foal of two paso fino parents who ends up being classified as a trochador, which is possible but very rare, other trochador breeders would not breed to it because of its pedigree so it would not be desirable at all. But don't be put off by a paso fino who just happens to be "gait enhanced". We happen to love them. We just look for one who prefers the isochronal gait, not one who does ONLY the isochronal gait. There's a big difference.

The Puerto Rican breeders are themselves sometimes breeding to the Colombian horses but also including PPR horses and breeding them to the Colombian horse, or sometimes breeding only Colombian paso finos. Our PPR mare for example was bred to Simbolo for her first foal. When many of the PPR breeders first saw the power and speed of the Colombian fino horses they fell in love with them and began to buy and breed that type. So there are mixed registries in Puerto Rico and many native Puerto Ricans who now train and breed primarily Colombian paso finos both in the US and in Puerto Rico. Other breeders have continued to breed PPR horses in Puerto Rico although requiring parent verification has been quite recent so pedigrees were not particularly accurate even in the PPR horses.

Should we open our registry to a horse who will enhance gait and/or conformation or some other traits? I don't a this time think we should without some evidence at least of common ancestry and perhaps a real need for what this outside horse has to offer. There are many unregistered paso fino type horses in Puerto Rico who could I'm sure be safely added to the registry though.

Lots of interesting questions and as we get more DNA evidence hopefully we'll have more answers.

[britzlove]

Thanks MG, that's an interesting way to look at somethings..and I totally agree with appreciating horses that can do more than gait.

New question..is a trochador different from a Colombian pure trocha? Or is it a term for the same thing? I unfortunately have not seen all that many true trocha horses on video...something I really hope to do. Many that I have seen however are just as impressive as the fino gaited horse. Certainly all the qualities I appreciate personally are there.

*Oh...I gotta clarify for reason of ease when I'm saying fino gaited I'm not talking about close and tight show fino, I just mean the four beat even lateral leading gait (be it pleasure/perf/or "classic fino").*

What I am interested in is the broken down differences between the horses. We've said that PR are being crossed to COL, but why? What are the details of desired combination? I am perfectly aware that you can't be sure...but when dealing with breeding it is about probable reproduction or improvement, no?

For instance, I've been planning to cross certain Lusitanos to certain type stock horses (QH/APHA) and then recross back. I want a lighter, more responsive, more willing horse, with less forhand heaviness..and yes, I also want prettier Spanish physical representation. There are a few more reasons...but for this purpose hopefully that helps.

What are detailed differences between styles of COL pasos? What makes a trochador, pure trocha, TyG, Trote I mean more detail? What are the differences between a PPR paso and a COL paso? Again if they cross why?

And I wasn't suggesting to combine blood of outside horses like the TBs. I just used that as an example.
Interestingly, I do think if unregistered PR horses are representing desireable characteristics then I'm not sure why not to use them.

We don't breed parrot mouthed horses to parrot mouthed horses why? Because of the probability of parrot mouthed foal, right? OK, flip it to positive characteristics...

[Terry Wallace]

We've said that PR are being crossed to COL, but why?

To improve size and confo. Here is what one long-time Paso breeder told me. Breed Colombian for size and confo to PPR for PPr gait in hopes to produce an "upsized" better confo horse with excellent gait.

I know a lot of people who do not like the PPR phenotype...talking the short leg, long body goose rumped variety. The rather slab-sided base narrow type of horse.

For me...I love the mixes, the Colo/PPR mix. I wonder what the ratio of mixes are to pure "types"...pure Col or Pure PPR of Paso registered. I'd almost bet there are more crosses than any other....Anybody know?

I do love the PPR, depending on "body type" as they all do not share the same phenotype. Its darn hard to tell the difference on some....

[Kerry W]

http://www.pasopedigree.com/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6502

There are photos in this thread...some of the horse's modalities are visible, some are not. I think you'll find that there are no "set in stone" phenotypical characteristics that will tell you which is which...because they are closely related, and the breeds that were introduced to produce the diagonal gaits, were closely related to the Paso Fino. There are differences you can see in some, but there are many that defy any "tyical" trait for a specific modality. Heck, there are many that are full brothers and sisters that do not gait alike! :lol:

Trote y Galope (P1) = trot and gallop = TyG
Trocha y Galope (P2) = ? I've always just heard them referred to as Trocha y Galope :lol:
Trocha Pura Colombiana (P3) = trochador/trochadora = Pure Colombian Trocha
Paso Fino (P4) = fino = Paso Fino Colombiano

Have fun! :lol:

[Candice Burger]

To me Britz, "paso" goes beyond gait. Gait is not paso enough for me. If a horse has all the attributes of paso fino except gait then I have to evaluate what the gait is and then determine if the expression is closer to what I call "paso". I'm like you. I'd be disappointed in the gait because, afterall, I don't like bumping, but the rest? It can't be beat. I have ridden enough smooth horses to know I demand more than smoothness to measure a horse's performance or to call it paso.

Yes, horses of PPR descent are showing very diagonal tendencies today. I am VERY glad to see this.

The hesitancy to comingle modalities has to do with associating one modality as paso fino and not the others and the use of "paso fino" and "paso" interchangeably to have the exact same meaning. When I say "paso" what comes to mind? The other problem is the historical development of "paso" in different countries and their definition of the term. The USA made a very grevious mistake by not recognizing these differences in the beginning. I am not sure why since the founders came from all countries involved. In fact, several of these original members from other countries embraced and promoted the term "Amercian Paso Fino".

To tell the difference between PPR and COL means to dedicate onself to compulsive and obsessive study. You will need the following: A video of PPR horses only, a video of COL horses only and allot of time. The differences are subtle and sometimes so minute that it takes allot of intense concentration to see it if it exists in that specific horse. Then it would help if you get to ride as many as you can. Personality, temperament, mechanics, conformation are subtle ingredients. The combination of these traits is what I call "phenotype" that tells me what the horse may be. Unfortunately I don't think direct exposure can be replaced by a book. Experience and exposure are the teachers here.

The reason no one talks about it openly and the reason I won't is because many read or hear a comment and take it personally. Only in a safe, private conversation amoung like-minded peers can such a topic be discussed. The respect for each other is maintained where in a public format, the speaker or poster is vunerable to attack. The topic is highjacked and the discussion is no longer productive.

Theory: I believe the push for "purity" today instead of the "American Paso Fino" has to do with marketing. Our last champions both in fino and performance were mixes not pure. Some pedigrees now are changing to eradicate any indication of mixing, so to arbitarily say it doesn't work is no more valid than the ones who devised this American PF to begin with. It has little to do with trying to maintain a pure strain for breeding and more to do with pride and marketing schemes. Going back to how to tell the difference between the two breeds, strains, types...if one cannot tell them apart how can one support the purity movement? If one cannot tell by the phenotype what breed the horse belongs to then how can one determine purity?

If you watch a video of Contrapunto and Bochica and did not know the country or bloodlines, I could easily say one was COL and one was PPR. The phenotype of the two are different are they not? The mechanics are distinctive, their bloodlines hardly related. If you watch a video of Kofresi and Mr. Puerto Rico, I could do the same. Yet if you saw the pedigree you would see Guamani in both pedigrees. If you watched all four horses at the same time, what would be the same or different? An excellent video to get and I will see if I can find someone with a copy, is the XXXX Mundial where Don Coqui competed and won third in fino stallions against COL horses. The difference in performance and mechanics is distinctive enough to see what is COL and what is PPR.

People yearn to have pasos in cookie cutter type categories. I've noticed that Americans particularly want a formula that guarantees certain outcome. Like MickeyD, we want to walk into MacDonald's anywhere in the world, order a quarter pounder and get the same type bun, patty size, the same amount of pickles with the same taste and the exact same amount of mustard and ketchup. I can go to MickeyD anywhere in the USA and get my quarter pounder. I know it before I order it. Pasos, thank god, are not like that and we Americans are oh so miffed about that one. It's terrible to see a horrifically built horse collect and gait like a demon. Or to see a beautifully built horse with barely enough mechanics to gait. Then when we find one that is built and does gait, it won't "fix" all the problems of it's mate and the babies are nothing like we imagined.

So not happy about unsuccessfully maneuvering the paso to be a gaited quarter horse, Americans are adamant about this fino, performance, pleasure and now "trail" horse type thing. I am still aghast over that approach.

I think this "purity" movement fills the bill though. At last we Americans can pursue somthing that is compartmentalized, categorized, and with a guarantee of acceptance and duplicity. HOORAY! Except now most don't know how to tell the difference and then what to do with all of these mixes? There are mixes in every country and don't think Colombia is pure nor innocent either. They may not care for PPRs but they have their own mixes to deal with too. It's not ok to mix COL and PPR pasos but ok to mix a trotting horse with paso and that is not a "mix"?

Pasos are still one of the most genetically diverse breeds in the world. That means it has the ability to respond to our tastes quite willingly and more rapidly than I had expected. While I have my own prejudices about what I think should be "paso", I do not want to risk removing the diversity. To me that is the core of the breed. If a breeder took the time for successive selection of traits in each generation, he'd be able to develop his own strain of paso. That is the power of paso. I can only speculate but I think it could be done with "pure" or "mixed" horses.

[britzlove]

Wonderful Kerry...enough to keep me and my translator busy for weeks....

TY SOOOO Much :D

Still along way to answering ?s but closer...I really need to apply some effort to learning Spanish so I could really get better at asking the right ?s.

This will be a fun activity for awhile though!
Thanks!

[Candice Burger]

We've said that PR are being crossed to COL, but why?

To improve size and confo. Here is what one long-time Paso breeder told me. Breed Colombian for size and confo to PPR for PPr gait in hopes to produce an "upsized" better confo horse with excellent gait.

I know a lot of people who do not like the PPR phenotype...talking the short leg, long body goose rumped variety. The rather slab-sided base narrow type of horse.

For me...I love the mixes, the Colo/PPR mix. I wonder what the ratio of mixes are to pure "types"...pure Col or Pure PPR of Paso registered. I'd almost bet there are more crosses than any other....Anybody know?

I do love the PPR, depending on "body type" as they all do not share the same phenotype. Its darn hard to tell the difference on some....

I think this long-time breeder might have in mind what was available in the USA only. There's plenty of examples on both sides that bunk the idea about gait and conformation.

The common thought of the day was to get COL confo on PPR gait.

Mixes can be treated as out crosses or out breedings; just Google for explanations and what the means to the breeder--cull and select, cull and select, for generations to fix production and performance. Kinda what the original breeders of paso did. After all did the horses imported from Spain elsewhere come eith inbred relations?

Now USA is repeating the exact same process by importing Colombian and Puerto Rican horses except we are spoiled. We don't want to have to work at it and spend a lifetime developing something we think we should have at our fingertips right this moment.

[britzlove]

All I can say is WHOA Candice I love ya

I'm starting to understand the whole thing...and yeah...ordered the DVD about an hour ago.

Another thing you mentioned was watching hours of video...I have..I do, every single day or the day is not complete and I am sad.

I have a hard time getting the right kinds of videos though. And then the language barrier...do I stop learning about horses and my regular studies for a degree for $ to pay for more horses to learn Spanish? I may have to, sooner rather than later...because there are keys and resources I'm just not able to get to.

Please keep me in mind anyone if you see a good video where I can really observe, slow down and study the horses. I need them named.

More later!

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

It's not ok to mix COL and PPR pasos but ok to mix a trotting horse with paso and that is not a "mix"?
.


That I have noticed too, I am glad that you said it and not me..... but can you explain to me why???? I am just curious to understand the logic behind it.

[cowboy ed]

i have crossed my andalusian stallion(he trots, wow! does he trot!) with several paso fino mares. i have three of those offspring here on the farm. two colts and a filly, all less than a year old. my reason for crossing like this was because of the spanish bloodlines on both sides.
when the foals were young, i could see some evidence of four beat gait. as they got a bit older, they spent more time running, romping and playing, so i dont see the four beat gait as much. so, the jury is still out about what these horses will do when they are older and under saddle.

one thing is for sure, they are beautiful, and have very good conformation!

i know, i know.......pics, pics! coming soon, i promise!

[Candice Burger]

So ed, what do I have to do to get an invite to see these youngsters? I'd be very interested in seeing how they move now, romping and playing around.

[CarolU]

I haven't read this thread until this morning because of the long posts(being busy with company and great weather), but I just read it all. I think Britz might like and enjoy Deb Bennett's book, The Conquerors, about the origins and migration of horses through Europe, into, and through the Americas.

I haven't heard mention in this thread of the influence of Cuban horses or of the Merchadors and Criollos elsewhere in South America. I go back to Candice's post about our need to compartmentalize and think purity, when in fact these ideas come very late in the history of breeding Spanish gaited horses. There has historically always been a lot of trade throughout the Caribbean, South and Central America, importing and exporting of breeding stock for different reasons. The average horse was bred by the average person, without a lot of thought into purity and lineage. Normally the local stallion was used for convienence. Occasionally an outside stallion was brought in for "improvement."

Not until more recently, when horses are used more for enjoyment, sport, and competition - instead of just transportation and working - have, even the countries of origin, developed "breeds" as we like to think of them. This is why pedigrees STOP about 50 years ago. No one kept records of breedings, linage, or breed or modality. I have been told that when making pedigrees for the American buyer (who loves pedigress), often times that back generations were just filled in with the names of famous stallions, soley because no one remembered where the horse came from, or who all the stallion was bred to.

I am not sure when we will have a complete DNA tracing of the Paso Fino to see outcrosses and mixes, that we will be able to define a single pure breed. I believe that outcrosses have always happened, and there is no such thing as 'pure' anything, once we take pride and Nationalism away. Even my "pure" PR mare has Lucifer in there, a Colombian stallion imported to, and bred in PR.

I wanted to add this link: http://www.conquistador.com/spanish-breeds.html

I believe all these horses are very inter-related.

[britzlove]

Now USA is repeating the exact same process by importing Colombian and Puerto Rican horses except we are spoiled. We don't want to have to work at it and spend a lifetime developing something we think we should have at our fingertips right this moment.

See Candice, exactly the thing. We hear the word "cull" and Ohhhh the horrer! But, it doesn't have to have such a bad juju connected to it. But the American ego...well..I mentioned it before up there...In our huge history with horses...I still can only recall a few, very few, genuine breeding artists in America.

Capitalism, Commercialism, Labeling...American...to me...limiting...prohibitive...restrictive....

I understand nobody wants to admit they have a cull because of pride. A cull doesn't have to be a bad thing. They still have hearts and souls, they are still hundreds of notchs above many horses in my opinion. I just don't understand.

We don't admit the importance of this, but gripe about slow sales and inability to correctly market etc.

There is NOTHING wrong with admitting that certain horses have breeding strength...and certain horses don't. Except, when for some reason someone is misled to believe that all they have to do is pay the $ and they'll have a winner. This idea is further reinforced when, and yes it does happen, these horses are incorrectly rewarded.

Again, it helps to go outside the breed to examplify, Peptoboonsmal is a QH phenom...in the NCHA pen, in the NRHA pen, and in the AQHA/APHA pen

Peptoboonsmal:
Total Get Earnings: $6,464,915
Offspring Performers: 263
Average Money: $24,581

His mother, IMO the true phenom..but whatever.

Royal Blue Boon has produced 18 foals with 16 performers earning $2,498,079 for an average of $156,129.96.


Impressive numbers yeah? Well..if you really analyze this, and did a really big search you'd find that he has just as many offspring that never did anything, and a handful of stars that bumped the earnings up. You'd really be surprised though how many people would look at that and think "Hey! Average earnings that high, it's worth the $15,000 fee!" Now, do they go find a mare that will make the best use of his breeding qualities or do they write the check and wait for that star struck ride that rarely pans out in reality?

Alternately, are there offspring of Royal Blue Boon that are better? Well, maybe, in my opinion certainly better crosses to better horses overall.

Well, you better bet before I bred any mare to a horse for 15k, that girl would have proved some things first. But is this the common reality? No, we want the story...the dream.

A lifetime working on something? No, that's certainly not the case. And boy do we get angry when we've spent good money for nothing. We just can't see a mistake as a learning experience..and keep plugging...keep dreaming...no, we get angry..quit, or try another hand at this same game, pick another high dollar high risk pairing...mad again...or maybe you get lucky that time..then angry when you can't have every one be like the lucky one.

How does this relate... (Carol..I'm sorry but I want to post a long post, I have too)

I don't need DNA to tell me much...I'm really not interested in outside crosses...I said that....I'm not talking of adding Andalusian blood to my paso finos....The Colombians HAVE made an entirely different, maybe better style horse for me. There certainly are enough excellent examples of breeding stock in my opinion.*edited to add that I appreciate the PR also...just wanted to clarify that I don't see much of a need to go out any further if that makes sense*

Of course I'll admit that the Pepto game goes on in this world too...but...I have witnessed a deeper commitment to the horse and breeding as an art here. It wasn't about the fee, it was about how one mare could help express the strengths of a stallion.

I realize plenty of people do just write the check and expect return. And yes, that is American...and for many things I like this ideology..but not here...what I mean to say those qualities of capitalism, commercialism, labeling, all that goes with that...make us handy in lots of ways. But here, it limits our scope, our ability to relax and observe.

How about a hypothetical to get back on track:
I have a mare, who is PPR, is pretty, nice pedigree, and her gait is consistent, meaning, very even, very equal, she's got the rhythym of dancer. However, she's little, a bit weak in the rear, her hock action is about as far from snap as possible...more like a moan than a snap.
Do I breed her to the most expensive, popular stud I can find? Or, do I begin searching for a stud that can help to put some more pizazz in there? If it takes 4 years will I be OK with that? Then, if the foal is some of those things but could still use some improvement...do I then find the most expensive label this time? Or do I again think of the best match for that foal..and go find it? Now, if that stud is COL do I get upset? ALternately, if that stud happens to be trocha do I avoid the pairing? But, I've taken a mare of very consistent fino gait, lets say for posterity that the foal is also consistent just "snappier", with a stronger posterier.
Is it OK if I think crossing this foal would be OK to a trocha horse?
If then my foal was a little too diagonal, could I handle that in a future breeding? All along this journey could the improbable but possible lucky star pop up? Hasn't it already happened before? If you think of true greats do you think their breeders knew before they were foaled how truly successful they'd be?

Now, I started this in a desperate attempt to really get into the heart of this..and I'm like dog with a bone sometimes...so I appologize in advance.

It's been helpful to look at that thread Kerry, though all it does is feed more questions for later. And it's already started to get in my head and bubble around in there.

This place is already such a great resource...the potential to become even greater would be there in that people interested in breeding..I mean really interested in it as a life time art..not a way of making $. If I could come here and get opinions about certain studs strengths and weaknesses, see weaknesses are important too....but if I could try to get some input about progenetic observances, expressed characteristics common in offspring...but it's sooooo hard! And I just don't understand.

What are the details...is your stud helping to improve gait? Is he replicating his impressive front end, rear? Are all his foals quick responsive learners?Willingness?

Then, follow up with when someone says, "I'd like opinions for stallions for my mare" #1 require more detail about the mare, #2 evaluate your studs potential pairing with that mare before asking for a check, you see, if they aren't a good match, it doesn't help your boy just like it might not help their girl.

Also, when someone does come here with the above questions, if you're here and you have some observed exerience, share with them! If you've seen offspring of a particular stallion you think will pair good with their mare...tell them, but tell them why...mare owners don't need to hide their weaknesses either...it should all be in the interest of preserving magnificent animals.

Why is it that we refer backwards? Because we're seeing too much of our own influence beginning to mess it up. Why is it that we can't sell our babies? Too much labeling...not enough observation, and evaluation.

OK, novel for the day 8-) sorry for it's length but needed to get it all out.

Last thing I promise:

That I have noticed too, I am glad that you said it and not me.....

Calibur, I asked you here...it's horrible for you to feel like you can't say anything...especially on my thread. Please feel free to share your honest thoughts, opinions, feelings, questions. I know in my search for knowledge you can help. I know sweet Candice mentions this too, but never feel timid about responding to me...I hope I never let you feel your view is not valued. Same goes for everybody :D

Britz

[britzlove]

And forgot to thank Carol for the book recommendation! Thanks!

[Candice Burger]

You're not asking for much are you Britz!

We can't have those type of discussions mainly because we are still very insecure about our horses. We keep comparing them not only to other breeds (like why?) and then to each other. Instead of seeing other horses in a positive light, flaws and all, we try to find faults to elevate what we have. I don't get it.

We continually try to put a standard or analysis on intrinsic traits of the breed. We try to separate out components as if they can stand alone when making decisions.

Here's the deal. Going back to pedigrees and all that. People saw a horse and "knew" if that is what they wanted. Pedigrees were secondary if considered much at all. Now, that's not to say mature breeders didn't think about it, but more likely they thought about the horse and his ancestors. When I think of Profeta, I think of Nevado and Profetiza and then I think of their parents. I try to know the horses or know someone who does. I don't think "Profeta"; I think history, heritage, and look for his essense for lack of a better term. Again, you feel it, not analyze it like it's a car on a lot. I don't think "Profeta" and then run to a computer to see his pedigree. And if I do pick the pedigree up first, the horse doesn't speak to me through a piece of paper.

That's why pedigrees weren't recorded the best and why it didn't matter what the paper said. Today we say it matters because we want to replace the experience with something we can "touch". You can't "touch", describe, measure a moment that literally takes your breath away. We want to find a replacement for that because of distance, finances, time, but you can't. I'm telling you, you can't.

Paso Fino breeders have valued the intrinstic experiences of the animal before all else. I've heard time after time how very knowledgeable breeders looked at a horse and said this is the one. Why else do paso finos affect us so? It's not the conformation or the brios or the gait. It's that electrifying moment where you get chills, bumps and you hair is standing on end.

Even when we misinterpret the horse mating, the result is still 90%+ better than any other breed. Why? Because you went with experience first.

I've been reading this TB books on breeding for too long now. Time after time I'm struck by one common cord in all the stories. I've read about every freakin' possible type of breeding technique there is, but one thing doesn't change. The "breeder" whether the owner, manager, stable boy, who planned the mating KNEW his horses and he picked out the intrinsic qualities to make his final choice.

We cannot remove the mysticism of the mating process. Pedigrees and on-line assessments cannot replace the value of first hand experience. Who knows how the horse will speak to you? You can't get that through a pic or video or at a show. You must see the horse in his perfect state to "know" him.

We've talked about trainers vs. horsemen. I truly believe it's worth every ounce of effort to be a horseman so that you can fully appreciate the experience of pasos. I say this because I believe paso finos were created by horsemen. I think some things are missed when we lack the ability to allow the horse his own expression and do not give him every opportunity to demonstrate it.

I'm not suggesting everyone go for broke to see every paso fino on earth. That's where some technical culling helps out. Pedigrees, videos, books, and forums can provide great filters. Go to a horse show to see the progeny of several horses, the big bang for the buck. If you have a particular interest, a desire, then only the real deal can help you there. Then it's worth the trip.

I'm all for accurate documentation because I fear we are losing historical information with each generation. I'm not for using pedigrees or DNA to determine quality or to validate a horse. I cringe over the term "black type".

One thing I wholeheartedly agree with was the statement about paso finos retaining the "art" of breeding. It's seldom in a conversation that we talk about the commercial value of the mare and rank her accordingly. We don't suggest taking a mare to stallion with a lower stud fee because she lacks quality or because the offspring won't have commercial value. We still see horses for what they are individuals and not a commodity.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

[
Calibur, I asked you here...it's horrible for you to feel like you can't say anything...especially on my thread. Please feel free to share your honest thoughts, opinions, feelings, questions. I know in my search for knowledge you can help. I know sweet Candice mentions this too, but never feel timid about responding to me...I hope I never let you feel your view is not valued. Same goes for everybody :D
Britz


Oh Britz, I think this thread is very interesting, but I really need sometime to read it all :lol: I was waiting for free time tomorrow.

But, I have been browsing thru it...... and I find it VERY INTERESTING but some kind of contradicting or maybe I am mis understanding which COULD BE A GREAT POSSIBILITY.

To Be Brief, at another thread...... Puerto Rican Horses and GENETICS!!!!
we where discussing GENETICS!!!!! and how GENETICS we think works!!!! when I say WE THINK!!!!! is due to BELEIVING SCIENSE is very advanced but will never figure out the MISTERY and "MIRACLE" of LIFEBEING!!!!!!!! no matter what they say.

And comparing notes I find some CONTRADICTING comments....... nothing directly to no individual in particular.....

So, that is why I think that threads like this one is so important to discuss, is part of a history that we cant avoid acknowleging it.


So, I will be back.........


Saludos

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

Ok here we start Britz..

You quoted- Peru is pretty far away from Colombia, WRONG!, Peru Borders Colombia. Now, I am not being distructive here, but being constructive for everyone to have a better understanding on the subject matter, which is OUR BREED.

Lets keep in mind first: that EQUIDAE were extinct from the AMERICAS about 10,000 years before the first horses were brought to our CONTINENT. When I say AMERICA, I mean the entire continent, North America, Central America and South America.

Around 25 horses brought by Christopher Columbus on his second trip to the New World back in 1493 landing in what is now DOMINICAN REPUBLIC.

These horses were of BARB breed, multy gaited, { trot, pace and gallop} because of the previous inbreeding and natural selection in North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula.

Now, these 25 horses and others brought on later vogages, produced offsprings that during the first 2 decades of the sixteenth century were spread throughtout the areas where Spaniards expanded their territory in the AMERICAS { The New World }, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Jamaica, Mexico, Peru and Colombia.

Within the last 5 Centuries, these horses have evolved into the PASO FINO HORSES and many other breeds, such as the Peruvian Paso, the 3 Diagonal Paso Horse Breeds and the Argentinian Criollo, among others.

THE PASO FINO BREED, with an evenly alternated movement among the four hooves, "EMERGED 200 YEARS AGO" , after repeatedly crossing the pacing group of the horses of the BARB breed {2-beat, laterally gaited horses} with some of the IBERIAN horse breed { Andalusian, Lusitanos and Spanish Jennet.}

NOW, one of the most recent important influences of the IBERIAN horse Breeds on Colombian horses is DANESA, who was born in "1950".
This mare was the product of crossing a COLOMBIAN PASO FINO mare named DIANA, with a LUSITANO stallion owned by the female horseback bullfighter, CONCHITA CITRON. ( take notes, WOMAN LIBERATION.)

Danesa, who performed TROTE and GALOPE, was bred with different COLOMBIAN stallions, who performed Paso Fino, Trocha, Trote and Galope or Trocha Galope and produced at least "10" outstanding quality offsprings of different gaits, most of which were MULTI - CHAMPIONS in COLOMBIA horse shows.

Those were DALILA, DANES, DANTE, DON DANILO, FANTASIA, PACHECO, RELIQUIA, ROSALINDA, TANGO and TORMENTO (the old Tormento) , their offsrpings are now part of the COLOMBIAN horse bloodlines.



This is the "REAL" history of our breed, NOT THE CACA'S B-S that MR. CARRICO had the ignorance to say on a NATIONAL MAGAZINE, ( Horse Illustrated, May 2007) WHAT A REAL SHAME!!



Saludos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

BUMP UP

[britzlove]

Hey Calibur! Good Start!

To clarify, when I said Peru was far from Colombia I did say in context of the travel then...back then...It wasn't hop a plane, or drive down the road. Meaning that if they share a link, it makes sense that it is minimal, but similar..if that makes sense. It wasn't a defined line right? I mean wasn't it more like bordering regions? In terms of distance in context of time is what I meant.

As far as the rest...I thought I had it close..and I'm so glad I was persistant.

I'm so sorry Calibur that I was late replying...I was in TN and GA with Deb D and drooling over some beautiful horses. While at Debs, Fabio Ochoa put me to bed everynight, looking over those books in addition to the post KerryW posted for me...has kind of solidified what I think I already knew..just needed more info...MUCH THANKS!!!!!!!

Let me run it down again and you use a color key if I need correction.

All horses of the south/central american region descend from imported horses from Spanish/European/African Stock (Barb stock).

The similiarities naturally are there because of this early link, and it is still a very small population radiation.

Where the similarities end, differ because different groups of people, different cultures selected for different trends in human aided reproduction, matchmaking, breeding. The horses are different because the people were different in their evaluations and qualities desired in horses.

Peruvian Paso, are really only pretty much linked in the term "paso" and four beat gait, but differ in the excecution of the gait. They are not very closely related, although may share a handful of ancestors but not much.

The Modalities of Colombian horses, are all the same horses pretty much, and unlike Peruvians, share ancestors more immediately. You may have a great grandaughter of Majestuoso that is fino, and you may have a great grandaughter of Majestuoso that is TyG in the same pasture...they are close cousins in human terms. And you may have brothers that one is fino one is trocha, and both can be champions, correct??? I'm not talking in terms of here in the US but upon the founding of the Paso horse in Colombia...and the way it still is?

Let me explain....
I realize we try to bang a square peg into a round hole...that's what we do. And that can be good sometimes this tenacity to make it fit.
But, this whole frustration and misconception, which leads to failure to understand and so harder time appreciating (though slowly I see the idea getting more acceptable) the other types of Colombian paso horses.
Rather than take horses that might be a trocha champion, we become angry that he is, and try to make him into what he isn't, taking away from his beauty in my opinion.

It just seems like I see more trying to force the pegs than I'd like.

So much drama over gait when it doesn't have to be. Instead of an agitator I'd love for it to become a peacemaker. All this what do I do about this..my horse is too trocha, too this too that, he/she's doing this thing and its hard to get her to_____. We need more let the horse lead a little sometimes. Does that make sense?

Now, with regard to Colombian Paso Horses and Puerto Rican Paso Horses, I saw mention of some really quite early horses we see in pedigrees that come from PR, but were bred in COL. Similarly I think there are examples of the other way.
Here's what I think and I'd love more input:
They are cousins, but more like 2nd and 3rd cousins..and some of the characteristics just differ a little because the people differ a little (like mentioned above).
They are some more different than the Colombian modalities are from each other, but not as different as Peruvians. Am I close? I hope? A little closer?

Again..feel free to correct me o I can't learn anything.

[PLEASURE PASOFINO]

[quote="britzlove"]
Where the similarities end, differ because different groups of people, different cultures selected for different trends in human aided reproduction, matchmaking, breeding. The horses are different because the people were different in their evaluations and qualities desired in horses.

Peruvian Paso, are really only pretty much linked in the term "paso" and four beat gait, but differ in the excecution of the gait. They are not very closely related, although may share a handful of ancestors but not much.
quote]



Britz, I agreed, The evolution happend as part of a complex process that included , Natural Selection caused by living and working in a completly different topography, climate and different kind of grasses, human selection and training.



Saludos

[britzlove]

And the rest?