Need training recommendations on moving out from a dead stop

[darcy]

Okay, I'd like to hear some recommendations about how to help my mare to move out slowly and smoothly. She tends to grab her a!! and I am unsure how to ask her for a smoother transition from standing to walking. I am glad she knows how to access that power it's just not necessary all the time and especially when I'm not asking for it. This is a mare who is still very sensitive to any kind of cue, not spooky about it just VERY responsive. I'm trying to desensitize her but when we take off and she lunges forward I tend to sit back and then she thinks I want her to stop so I am confusing her with my seat.

Ed and others, do you think lateral flexion exercises would help her to relax for this as well? To be honest I work with lateral flexion exercises on the ground but always seem to forget to warmup with some once I'm in the saddle...

I'm not sensitive so I'd like to hear everyone take on this!

[Heidi]

Instead of a physical cue, could you give her a verbal cue?
When I want my animals to slow down I like to say "eeeaaassssyyyy" in a very slow and low tone.
Heidi

[cowboy ed]

darcy, yes, i think you can use the lateral flexions/one rein stops to help with this situation. try this. after you are mounted, let her stand still and flex her 5-6 times on each side. this will help her relax, and it will also give you time to get settled in the saddle. then, ask her to walk forward by GENTLY squeezing with the calves of your legs. i am guessing that she will move with just a squeeze, if not, kiss to her, (or cluck if you prefer. you probably wont have to use step 3 (spank with the reins across her shoulders) to get her to move. if she does that "jumpstart", then immediately do the one rein stop, flex her a couple of times on each side, then repeat the process. do this until she will start in a relaxed walk. refer to those instructions i sent if you need to. it will also help if you will make her walk in some small circles. ed

[darcy]

I don't usually have the problem when riding in a saddle, it's when riding bareback but nevertheless I'd rather have a smoother transition all the time. When riding a saddle I can stand in the stirrups enough to keep myself from sitting too deeply, and she doesn't tend to grab it quite so much when saddled anyhow.

Here is the order of my cues. First I pick up the reins (usually I just hop on with her halter and a lead rope but perhaps she would feel it more if she had a bit in her mouth, but I'm kinda lazy and prefer to just hop on.....) Then I shift my seat forward giving a slight squeeze with my seat, then when she still doesn't get it I move to the gentle squeeze with my calves and a cluck, still no response(she responds to clucking when inhand??) then I by no means kick her I just turn my heels out and apply GENTLE pressure(no spurs) and then we have blastoff.

My biggest problem is not getting her to slow down it's getting her to keep moving so there's no need for the one rein stop she does it all herself... AFter she lunges forward and rolls me back she thinks I want her to stop, when really I want her to keep moving so we can work on some small circles and some more stop and goings. I want her to keep the willingness to stop/rate her speed when I sit deeply but I'd rather it take that and another cue such as a verbal or rein cue to complete the stop....

I was thinking perhaps that I should just sit there do some lateral flexion exercises and then sit in an accomodating seat and wait until she decides to move, to be honest I haven't been very patient, I do use all of my cues sequentially but perhaps I should give her some more time to process between them. She's truly not hard headed, very willing if only I knew how to communicate it to her.

Her mother is a go-go girl, you pickup the reins and you're off, but Mia hasn't had the kind of extensive training and riding time Dea has, and a very different basic personality. And I kind of enjoy her natural reticience, it's a big change from what I am used to dealing with.

Sometimes I think I want to send her to a trainer, but this is a very sweet tempered mare who I love dearly. I really think we can work it out together, I've had my share of attempting to train horses that were beyond my abilities to handle but feel very confident about her.

[Trail Rider]

If the problem is when you are pushed back on your seat what about trying to grab a handful of mane and stay forward when she starts? Then gradually ease back to a riding position.

[stella]

To a certain extent, I think you answered yourself.....SLOW DOWN in what you are asking....and expecting..dont go on to the next step, til previous one is done...
But I have to ask you.....why are you leaning forward on her? THe horse is supposed to do the work, not you!
All kidding aside.....yes, moving up there on ESPECIALLY a green horse will usually make them move, because you put your weight/them in a position of imbalance, and they have a need to rebalance....

But you really dont want to "lock up" the forehand of a green horse, esp not a gaited one, by putting your weight forward on its forehand......she's probably "counterbalancing" by locking her rear, and the "burst" is to get past the impeded forehand. (in mares especially, the hindquarters are stronger than forehand)

Try just using your hands, legs, voice, even seat, but DONT shift your bodyweight forward.....leave the forehand free, and I think you'll find it easier for her to learn to relax her rear end.
Also, keep your own body very relaxed...when you're anticipating this big "push,"especially bareback, it'd only be natural to constrict your own musculature, but horses respond by doing the same........exhale, to help your horse do the same!

[motorgypsy]

Our Colombian trained mare was like that - from stop to full gallop - and I found that if I just moved the reins quickly with the slightest left then right cue that she'd move forward gently. If she didn't move the first time I'd repeat - pull left, then right, every so slightly - not enought to cause any motion of her head, just enough to cue her. Since then I've found this works very well on most of our horses especially if they balk a bit.

No leg cues, kisses or seat cues on her unless I wanted a blast off.

[darcy]

Thanks Stella, I'll give it a whirl.. This is both my first mare and gaited horse, and first that actually needed encouragement to move... My seat cue is more of a rotation and opening of my hips, straigtening my back, I'm not actually leaning forward, if anything I'm shifting the weight of my upper body back... I guess I'm getting confused because I'm trying to imitate the style in which I see most people riding pasos and I come from a western background. And now that you mention it maybe when I'm on her bareback I'm sitting much closer to her withers than when she is saddled. I'll try to see what happens if I sit farther back and quit with the trying to create forward energy with my hips.

I agree that she is attempting to find balance and that is the reason for the lunge, I just thought it was the exact opposite, that she was trying to offload some of my weight to her forehand... So much to learn here!!

[motorgypsy]

Darcy lots of great advice and it will work but seriously try the rein cue on her just as an experiement. By shifting the horse's weight ever so slightly for some reason it encourages them to move nice and slowly in a very relaxed manner. Once she has figured out what you want her to do you can teach her any cue you want her to learn to initiate this movement but you have to get her moving in a relaxed manner first. I was at my wits end with this mare and tried everything because she was so hot and trained to move out with such slight cues and this just worked. Then I tried it on several others and it worked on them also. Several of ours have been show trained and they enter the arena at a corto so they tend to move off at a corto and it was quite difficult to get them to move off at a relaxed walk. This rein cue worked.

[Lynn L.]

Darcy,

To just build on something that Stella mentioned: Since you already know how to ask her foreward in phases, try a slower phase 1. Once you have your reins ready to go and you are ready to go, DO NOT lean forward. Stay in your "normal" riding position and think forward at the pace you want to go. It is normal to lean forward at this point. Don't. Just reset yourself and think forward. Then go through with the rest of your phases. By keeping off her forehand you will help her. By thinking forward, you body will automatically tell her to go. (I don't know how it works, I just know it does.)

It often helps to have a person watch you while you try this. It seems to be an unconscious thing to lean forward to start. I know with me, when I think forward, I would have to stop my body from leaning forward. The person on the ground caught me all the time trying to go forward without the horse! She would tell me to have the mental image of the horse picking me up and then going at the speed I want. I still lean forward sometimes, but I am getting better at catching myself! The good thing is that my horses are starting to get smoother takeoffs when I don't get in their way!

[stella]

Right, Lynn.....it doesnt just help the horse(then you see how really sensitive they are), but it also channels YOUR energy into your visualizations and lessens your tendency to MOVE yourself.....you just cant do it FOR THE HORSE!
People that tend to be "doers" have that tendency, but remember- riding is to RELAX from that! Yes, we must be the leaders in the situation, but as guidance, setting the parameters.....leave the physical work to your equine partner!
Remember, that from the horse's perspective(yes, put yourself in its place)the thing its MOST aware of, is your weight on top of it, and that it must still balance itself in relation to gravity - a horse's greatest innate fear is falling, when its most vulnerable.....so whatever cues you give it, it must STILL DEAL WITH ITS OWN BALANCE, first and foremost.
Are some movements cues? If so, which? Ooops, I'm trying but now I have to deal with you restricting my right shoulder...hmmmm, and so on. SO, #1 to help, the LESS moving around up there, the better, its better able to perform the movement asked correctly, and the CLEARER any signals you do give it, will be.

[Pasogirlz]

:notworthy Just wanted to say how much I appreciate all the trainers who help out on this forum. :D

[motorgypsy]

Ahhh - you know the rein cue, since it is left right and not a lean forward or squeeze cue may well work because you don't tend to lean forward when you do it. It's almost a jiggle it's so impreceptable. An observer might not even notice it but the horse does and perhaps moves forward because it throws the balance off ever so slightly?????

[darcy]

Stella you nailed me as a doer!! i'll try to get someone to watch me tomorrow as long as it doesn't start snowing again!

[GeorgeGuns]

AFter she lunges forward and rolls me back she thinks I want her to stop

Balance problem of the rider. I agree, you don't need to lean forward to get her to go, and doing so tenses YOU so when she does blast off, you fall backwards. Your whole torso may be stiffening, or just your pelvis. Chances are its starting out tense which may be making it hard for her to move forward. Make sure you are sitting back on your butt so your legs are light and your body can relax better - your lower back should be rounded somewhat, not hollowed. This will give you better mobility and thus give her more freedom to move.

The system I use is to squeeze with my thighs/butt/legs - lightly - if that doesn't work, tap myself with the rope, if that doesn't work, tap the horse's butt with the rope. It helps if the horse knows to move off with a butt tap from the ground first. It doesn't have to be a smack, I have one mare that if she sulls up, all it takes is a gentle tickle with the saddle strings - she knows I can go to a bigger "touch" and doesn't want that. This follows the same escalation of cues ideal that you use, just slightly different cues and it won't upset your own seat.

Remember to "breathe into your bottom" and move with the horse. When you fall back, you aren't moving with her, and so she stops - she is taking her cues from you after all. Then to stop, all you may have to do is what she is already responding to - stop moving with her!

[cowboy ed]

darcy, how much riding experience do you have? a little, a lot? somewhere in between?

another thing that will help with this horse is to make her walk small circles in both directions for the warmup period. do it for twenty minutes if you need to.

[darcy]

Riding experience.... middle of the road... I've had no formal training, I think it would definately help but don't have the $.

I was married for 4 years to a former bullriding, cutting and racehorse trainer/shoer who absolutely wrecked me. I didn't ride for almost seven years because of the things he would do to me with horses. He would put me on very nasty greenbroke horses that I didn't want to ride in the first place and then literally scream at me. So I definately have some tension....

It's a lot like skiing most everyone brags about their ability level. I'm the first one to say I suck at riding, but my friends tell me I don't.

So needless to say I am working through some "issues" with horses. Mia has been a great horse for this despite her lack of experience because of her gentle nature and respect. It has been awhile since I have been able to sit aboard a horse and relax, not having to worry about what kind of rodeo we will be having today. I never had those problems prior to my marriage. Handling and riding her are confidence boosters for me as she responds so well.

I know I should probably go find a horse that can babysit me through my learning to trust horses again but Mia has been the best trainer for me of any horse I have ever had or known. And riding fully trained horses without vices doesn't help me to get past my issues.

But if that I have to send her to a professional trainer to get her the experience she needs to further help me than I guess that will just be what I have to do.

Would love to her from y'all whether you think that will be necessary. Do you think that my well-intentioned attempts to work with this mare will result in permanent training damage?

And I would also like to second Lori's thank you to all the trainers who have offered their advice!!

[cowboy ed]

ok, that really helps put it in perspective. i really hate that you had such a bad experience.

i think it may be a good thing that you can do some work with your horse on your own. so, just be patient, and be willing to settle for little increments of improvement. it wont happen overnight. if you can work with your horse 3 times per week for about an hour or an hour and a half, you will probably do fine.

[Barbwire]

Darcy, what's your ex's name & address? I think there are enough of us here to form a posse and go string him up.

[Minouri]

I agree with the seat position and balance comment. I wondered if you weren't urging her to jump forward by leaning into it. Plus there seems like there is a lot going on in your mind and your seat. Maybe you're not even aware of some of the messages you're sending.

If you feel like you're falling backwards when she pulls forward...you sound tense. A relaxed butt doesn't usually leave the saddle....which I guess is what the more experienced people said before me and better...but that's what I always tell my stepdaughter.

When I hit a problem like this....now remember I'm just a family horse girl....I stop thinking of it like an issue and training program. I think of it like game. How little will it take to get her to go and what messages does she respond to? No stress. Just fun. If she doesn't get it, don't get frustrated. Laugh and reassure her that the two of you are going to get this worked out. And do it again. Most horses want to do what you want....it's up to us to make our instructions clear.

Maybe even videotape yourself and watch what you're doing. It's really humbling to see your hands or legs doing stuff you never thought they were....lol

If the problem is with you and not with your horse no amount of training her is going to fix it. You'll still be asking her wrong.

I usually start with flexing to relax him. I use next to no leg or seat pressure...just a slight squeeze of the calves when I want him to move out. If that didn't work I would add the kiss sound. My trainer taught me to use the kiss sound as a "move" signal to be followed by instructions on what you want moved. It's like a half halt to prepare a horse for a change in gait or direction. Wake up, I'm going to ask you for something.

Sometimes we forget that we are sending signals with our whole bodies and not just the reins and legs. Want my Paso to go from dead stop to gallop without passing go? Lean forward over his neck. That's what I do when I want to race and that certainly sends him forward faster than most people would want..... ;-)

[darcy]

This mare and I are buddies... She's just as worried about doing everything right as I am. I know when I've confused her and always reassure her that it's not her fault. We have fun and no one gets hurt and I guess that's quite a lot....

Honestly my ex's whole measure of a person is how good a horseman they are. After being yelled at and having to sit by while he demeaningly picked apart EVERYONE's riding habits it's taken me awhile to feel even remotely capable aboard a horse. Before him, I knew less but I was far more confident in myself. Now I am hoping to reach a stage where I know more and feel confident in my abilities again.

Thanks for the offer Barb, I think he'll probably manage to string himself up all by his lonesome.

[Minouri]

Darcy,

Sounds to me like you guys are going to work it all out just fine. Sorry I didn't understand your situation.

[stella]

Yes Darcy, if you are rocking back and forth, then you need to do two things:
1- make sure you are sitting BODY CENTERED over your PELVIC bones, and not dropped back on your tailbone.....that's not centered, not a "true" seat.....one way to check, if you wear jeans, the side seamline should be straight up and down on your hips, from waist to leg!

2- RELAX your muscles and bodyweight, especially upper body-if you are tense, often it makes you "rise" your weight into your shoulders, arms, hands, so you DO NOT have a SECURE seat; you REALLY want it so that your bodyweight is DOWN into the saddle, and down thru relaxed legs, so that you allow GRAVITY to work FOR you, you work WITH it...literally "sandwiching" the horse, so that you're extremely stable on it.
In other words, "Exhale!" ..and guess what, literally doing that, helps.....because you cant tense any of your muscles when exhaling!

[CarolU]

Darcy...you might try a bareback pad. Not as stable as a saddle, but a little more secure then totally bareback. A great inbetween and transition gear. It might help you relax and not tighten those cheek muscles.

When I first rode Zar bareback, she stood there and quivered (which I let her do until she relaxed). She then over reacted with every tweek of a cheek. I think if I farted she'd have lost it totally! Bareback was WAY TOO MUCH contact for her.

A bareback pad has worked great for transition for her and I. I grew up riding bareback and in fact 'broke' Baby that way. But Zar is very wide backed and hard to have a secure bareback seat on. She needs the thickness of the pad to soften my muscle reactions.

You might try one. It worked for us.

[darcy]

Again thank you everyone!! And please, I don't want anyone to feel anxious about responding because of my past bad situation. This is a part of my healing, to get back to feeling okay about myself and horses, and I need the help of others to help me "see". When I bought Mia I still didn't think I was ready but I've gotta get back out there. I won't allow that his bad behavior will run me off for one of the things I am most passionate about in this world!

Stella I think you've nailed my problem. I do think I am tensing my upper body too much and holding my weight off my seat. When I talked about changing to an allowing seat that is what I am doing, straighening my pelvis so I'm not on my tailbone, but I know I am lightening my seat with my upper body. And when I drop back on my tailbone she parks it or rates herself depending on what speed we are at.

But here's another question, I am used to riding with my hands down by my hips and the swell of the saddle. If I do want to elevate her head set should I keep my shoulders relaxed and just bring my hands up higher, keeping my elbows down in a relaxed state?

The upper body tension has been something that's been with me awhile and is more related to the fact that I'm more "well-endowed" than I would care to be and tensing my chest muscles tends to "stabilize" things. But I will try to relax, I mean she IS really smooth enough I don't have to worry about that...or I;ll just have to get out the duct tape :shock: (This was one of my reasons for being so interested in pasos, how sad is that...)

And Carol I think you are also right that this is too much contact for her. She is as sensitive as Zar is. And you're description of her first bareback rides sounds much like ours... Do you still have to ride her with a pad or has she learned to relax since then?

I do have a bareback pad with stirrups, but it doesn't fit Mia very securely.. She's pretty round and it tends to side around a lot, the girth is made of a relatively thin cordura and I feel like I'm cutting her in half when I try to tighten it down to a secure fit.

I have seen some pads lately that have that tacky lining, and thought that looked like a good idea. Perhaps I can do a little retrofitting. I've got a great Western pad with the tacky lining, maybe I should try to rig a sturdier girth to that and give it a whirl...

She's slimmed down enough that my English saddle should fit again so I'll probably just go back to that and then we don't have this much of a seat sensitivity problem.

I have made a resolution to go take some formal riding lessons when I get my tax refund here in a couple weeks. It's something I've always wanted to do to find out where all the holes in my technique are, but never had the chance, now I'll make the opportunity.

[CarolU]

I do both Darcy. If I'm going to canter or practice liberty or anything unpredictable I put the pad on and NO STIRRUPS!!! They are way TOO dangerous on a bareback pad!!! Too easy to slide to one side!

I ride her without the pad with headgear and gaiting along the rail. She still over-reacts with my cheek muscles on tight turns. A lot of desensitizing and still more work to do! In truth, she is trying very hard to please and do as I ask, since I tense the same muscles in the Ansur...but she feels them so soon and reacts TOO MUCH bareback.

There is a flip-side to these ultra-sensitive horses...

[stella]

Now Carol, I'd have thought you'd like it being just a hair's breadth away from mental telepathy, the perfect union with a horse!
I like making a game of HOW LITTLE do I have to do, to get the response...and crank it up only by a half degree from there! "Do-Less" riding...so its not work! I think the ultimate is, when you cant see a rider giving signals, the communication is so perfectly subtle....

Yes Darcy, do not use stirrups on a bareback pad until you have a very secure, relaxed seat. Besides, without stirrups(saddle or not)will help you move around LESS.....

What you want to do is, keep your arms RELAXED.....remember "your arms are an extension of the reins," so you work from THE SHOULDER, let your arms become dead weight, your hands quiet......the muscles of your arms should work out of EXTENSION, and NOT contraction-which is tensing. Straighten your pelvis from the SMALL of your back.....around the kidneys, ischeal area(back of the waist and below)......that's enough to center you - and let those muscles above just HANG, relaxed! As soon as you exhale, so will the horse!

[darcy]

I had already removed the stirrups from my current bareback pad... They were much too small and I was already concerned about hangup possibilities, plus as loosely as the it fits there is no way I can put any weight in them anyway....

And yeah, there's new battles dealing with such a sensitive creature but actually I love it, I feel like I get to be more of a cooperative, reassuring leader than a drill sargent who always has to campaigning for my personal boundaries and respect.

It's a different kind of desensitization than i'm used to too, she's not spooked by the normal things I am used to having to work with horses on like plastic stuff, llamas, traffic, dogs, water, etc. It's a physical sensitivity, and sometimes I think that it's just because she has had so little riding experience, but even compared to horses with similar training experience she's sensitive.

I guess what I would love to hear is that eventually she will accept contact without acting like she's been reprimanded. That bothers me more than the physical overreaction to stimulus, is when I see that look in her eye thast seems to say, "Oh, I've been a bad girl I couldn't read her mind and she HAD to apply a physical cue, I'm such a bad horse..." And then I have to tell her that she is my wonderful princess and that we are both learning and I am not mad at her at all, but then I'm not always sure she believes me... Okay I'm probably reading more into her feelings than I should, but sometimes horses are so much more complex than people give them credit for.

We used to have this really Spanish looking bay QH, he was beautiful, and he was given to my husband by a friend because he was so scary no one would ride him. It was all a bluff, he was one of the kindest horses I've met, but he had figured out that people would leave him alone if he blew and snorted and he had this natural wild look about him, but really he was a gentleman. And then the ex traded him for a truck, I was heartbroken.

There is a definite difference, Mia is not so submissive about all things. She hates wormer and we work through it and her reluctance is totally different in temperment to what happens when I'm on her back.

Okay, gotta actually do some work now.